BTM57-Team Rubicon
Show Summary
On this episode, we have a conversation with Navy Veteran Art delaCruz, Chief Executive Officer of Team Rubicon, about how Team Rubicon supports those who served and their communities through disaster relief and humanitarian support, including a new initiative to aid in the resettlement of Afghan allies following the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.
About Today’s Guest
Art delaCruz served honorably for over 22 years in the United States Navy and enjoyed a career that included a broad range of assignments. Art commanded a Navy strike-fighter squadron, spent one year with McKinsey & Co. as a Secretary of Defense Corporate Fellow, served as a Topgun instructor, and made six combat deployments.
After retiring, he spent two and a half years in the aerospace and defense sector in the roles of business development and strategy and planning. He maintains a honed "quick reaction" capability by attempting to keep up with his wife, four kids, golden retriever, and labrador retriever puppy.
PsychArmor Resource of the Week
The PsychArmor Resource of the Week is a previous podcast episode featuring Mary Beth Bruggeman, Executive Director of The Mission Continues. Similar to this week’s episode, Mary Beth talks about supporting veterans while also supporting communities that veterans live in. You can check out that episode through this link: https://psycharmor.org/podcast/mary-beth-bruggeman
Links Mentioned In This Episode
Theme Music
Our theme music Don’t Kill the Messenger was written and performed by Navy Veteran Jerry Maniscalco, in cooperation with Operation Encore, a non profit committed to supporting singer/songwriter and musicians across the military and Veteran communities.
This Episode Sponsored By:
This episode is sponsored by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory with custom training options for organizations.
Producer and Host Duane France is a retired Army Noncommissioned Officer, combat veteran, and clinical mental health counselor for service members, veterans, and their families. You can find more about the work that he is doing at www.veteranmentalhealth.com
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Welcome to Episode 57 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans and their families. Find the show on all the podcast players by going to ww.psycharmor.org/podcast.
Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission is supported by the generous partnerships and sponsors, who also believe that education changes lives. This episode is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military cultural content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. And you can find more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.
On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Navy Veteran and Chief Executive Officer of Team Rubicon, Art delaCruz. Art served honorably for over 22 years in the United States Navy and enjoyed a career that included a broad range of assignments. Art commanded a Navy strike fighter squadron, spent one year with McKinsey and Company as a Secretary of Defense Corporate Fellow, served as a top gun instructor and made six combat deployments. After retiring, he spent two and a half years in the Aerospace and Defense Sector in the roles of business development and strategy and planning, and was appointed as CEO of Team Rubicon in 2021. You can find out more about Art by checking out his bio in our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with him and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.
DUANE: As CEO of Team Rubicon, you lead an international organization that made a significant impact on both the world that we live in, as well as the lives of the volunteers. The story behind the mission of team Rubicon and how it came about is inspiring. But I'd like to hear the story about how you came to Team Rubicon from your time in the Navy, into what you're doing.
ART: Yeah, number one, thanks for having me join. And I think, you know, my journey isn't unlike many Veterans. Like you, I spent 22 years in the Navy, retired in 2013 and in that first transition found myself in the world of the corporate sector. I found that a lot of the muscles I built up over 22 years of service, the men and women that I got to serve on the places we went, the noble mission we had, a lot of that was missing.
And I don't think that's uncommon for military Veterans in that transition. And that's when I began exploring other ways to begin flexing those muscles. By strange coincidence, my first job out of the military the place I worked was less than a mile from Team Rubicon.
At the time in 2013, it was an organization in its infancy. It was three or so years old. But then we're doing a noble mission. It was military Veterans helping people after disaster. So I went over there and for the next two and a half or so years, I got to know Jake Wood who was the co-founder really well and we just kept the conversation right. I helped where I could and shared some of the experiences and things I'd been during my time in the military, as well as my time, the corporate sector. And it really came to fruition in 2016 when he said, “Hey Art, would you be interested in potentially coming on as the Chief Operating Officer”, and the rest is history from there. I found that reconnecting those muscles that I talked about, being able to flex them on a regular basis, both, between my ears and the thought and the challenges that we'd have in a growing organization, in the field with men and women, who were linking arms to help people after a disaster and be able to help them those points in time, all proved to be really good, not just for me, but ideally for those people that we help, in the wake of disaster humanitarian crisis.
DUANE: Now, as you mentioned, I think that is a very common experience. Our desire for service and sort of that meaning and purpose that we had was tied to our profession in the military and a lot of Veterans when they leave the military, it's no longer tied to your profession, the purpose, your job, what you do is not as meaningful. And I think that's a shock for a lot of guys.
ART: Yeah, for sure. From the second year in bootcamp or, however you get brought into the military, you know, it's about the people. It's about the mission. It's about a role. That's not about me, it's about the we, and in that transition, you find a lot of that flipped. You're out of your comfort zone and the things you've acclimated to being able to do the types of values that you became aligned to, and suddenly you're a bit of a drift, I think.
And I think that's what's unique about Veterans service organizations. And I know you do a huge service and bringing a bunch of them, here is, we like to say at Team Rubicon that the military Veterans were built to serve, they found a calling, they volunteered, they joined an organization, they did extraordinary things.
And through that, they began to demonstrate that it wasn't just about the value they're generating for our nation. They found value in themselves. They found value in what they did on a daily basis. They found satisfaction in the opportunity to delete people or have extraordinary responsibilities, for their age.
You know, I, wasn't always amazed, every time I'd salute, uh,a young airman on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier that might be 18 or 19 years old has just pretty flighted, a $40 million jet, armed with bombs or missiles. And I can look at that young man or woman have them salute me, ask them if the Jet's ready to go.
And if it's a, yes, there's no doubt this person has done everything they've done to do that. And then that's a lot different once you take off that uniform. And it's a bit of a shame, I think lots of times, because you lose that investment, you lose that incredible baseline of experience that these military Veterans have.
So organizations like ours and ideally organizations across the civilian world are able to capitalize on some of those by recognizing that men and women who have worn the uniform can continue to bring unique skills and experiences to whatever industry they're in.
DUANE: That's one thing that I've really always valued about Team Rubicon is that synergy of harnessing the value and even the mindset of service members for, for the greater good. For lack of a better word. It's an organization that recognizes the desire and ability for service doesn't end whenever the uniform comes off. For someone with 10, 15, 20 years of service doesn't become irrelevant when their military service over. That experience is actually highly valued by organizations like Team Rubicon, when you find yourself in situations around.
ART: Yeah, and I think it's, and it's a difficult story to tell, right? The general population, the civilians might have a stereotype or an image from a movie. And one of the things that's been really powerful for me and beginning to tell the story of how incredible Veterans are and what unique skills and experiences they have is, you can't start with the identity.
I know you made combat deployments and operational deployments, and you had an identity in uniform and on a piece of paper in your first transition, it says, this is what I did. I like to look at people when we're having this discussions about the value of a military Veteran. And I say, imagine that the US Army or the US Marine Corps, Air Force, Space Force, Navy or Coast Guard was a university.
You know, it's a university. You can be there for four years and you get these unique skills and experiences. And you've gone to classes in safety and operations management and people management and crisis management, communications, all of these different skills that now allow you to step back and not say he or she is infantry or he or she is a tanker.
And you begin to take that [erson and digest those skills and those experiences that can be uniquely applied in a moment, a unique situation for which all of that training wasn't designed for, but it translates really well into that situation to have benefit. That's actually how Team Rubicon was founded.
Marine Corps Sniper. Earthquake in Haiti. And sees the devastation that says, this looks familiar. I have skills, and it's not about, throwing a bullet, a thousand yards down range. It's about being in the moment in that crisis. Being able to make decisions, leveraging the skills he's had in that class for combat medical skills, being able to understand culturally that there were going to be differences and then making a difference in that moment.
Not being paralyzed and having these virtuous outcomes in the end. And I think that's a story and that's a way of telling this, not just to the people that are looking to hire military Veterans with the population at large. Because once we take off our uniform, I think it's a bit of a disservice to not ask for more from these people who were built to serve and have had such unique skills and experiences like yourself.
DUANE: Yeah, you didn't use the term waste, but it would be a waste, right? It would almost be a waste. But I like that idea where you said that you're not focusing on the identity of the individual. We hear it so often with Veterans to say, if I'm not a blank then what am? They've wrapped themselves around that Airborne Ranger, Marine Force Recon, or something like that.
Or even if it's anything if I'm not the Sailor, Soldier, Airman or Marine than what am? A lot of Veterans wrapped themselves in an idea and they think that's all they are. Team Rubicon and Mission Continues, and RWB shows them that they are so much more than that identity that they locked themselves into.
ART: And I think if you can begin to make that transition. And like I said, I went through this. I had my personal struggle. I lost my identity and I'll give you a funny story, right? It was right after I transitioned out of the military. I'm now doing business development for a contractor. And my son asked me to go to career day.
And he stands up in front of his second grade class and says, this is my dad. He used to fly jets. Now he drives rental cars. In that moment, you know, I'm going, geez. You know, I've kind of been struggling with who I am lately, but what's been really interesting about i and what's been really interesting about having this opportunity to serve again, is that identity as a Ranger or as an Aviator or a Sailor or a Marine. For me, it's become the backdrop. I am now like a humanitarian working at a nonprofit organization that happens to be a Veteran, that has allowed me to make my personal transition and I've relished those days.
I love the people I met. I feel really great about the missions we got to perform. But I'm also comforted by the fact that, for the rest of my life and my second campaign, I can explore the different things that Art delaCruz can be. And I would want nothing more for all 250,000 Veterans who transition each year and for the 17 million that are scattered across this country to have that military service be a chapter that shapes the rest of their lives in a positive manner, but it doesn't define everything they are or can be.
DUANE: And that's again, something that I really value about what I know of Team Rubicon. I've mentioned a couple others, maybe the Travis Mannion Foundation that really provides Veterans what they want and post-military life. If you want to connect through fitness, of course, there's team RWB. If you were to connect through community and civic engagement, there's Mission Continues, disaster relief and Team Rubicon and there’s much more than that. But whatever the Veteran wants to do to have a fulfilling life, that organizations like yours and like others are really providing a resource for them to one explore what they want to do and fulfill what they want.
ART: Oh, you nailed it there. It's really a way that I like to describe it to the employees we have is our volunteers are our most important customer. They come to us for a reason. Ideally, it's aligned to our mission of disaster response and humanitarian crises, rapid onset disasters.
We take the gift that they give us, which is their time, their skills and experience. And we create a fulfilling journey for them at that moment. There is actually nothing I would like better than all of those organizations you mentioned. I think it would be wonderful if every Veteran could open up their closet on a Saturday or a Sunday or a day off and decide which hat they're going to wear and how they're going to serve, how they're going to apply their gifts and experience and what they expect to have on that day.
Because we're completely different from the Mission Continues or Travis Mannion Foundation but we all serve this really amazing purpose and taking these skills and experiences and applying them in different ways. We like to say, there's, there's this common misnomer that, everything that a Veteran service organization does is centered on the Veteran.
We like to say that the Veteran is actually not the object of our mission. They're the agent of our mission. And in serving, they reconnect with community, they reconnect with identity and they reconnect with this really noble purpose that is not unlike that, which they experienced when they wear the uniform.
DUANE: Yeah, I see these as an evolution as it necessarily needs to be. We are a different generation than my father was a Vietnam Veteran. And my grandfather's two of my grandfather's World War II Veterans. And so this idea of the right organizations for the right needs of the time. And I see this as really this evolution, beyond organizations, like the old VSOs that are definitely giving Veterans what they need helping them with disability and things like that. And of course, Team Rubicon can connect with providing that support. It's more than just disaster relief. But it's the meeting,the needs of the Veterans, how they want it to be met today.
ART: Yeah. And, I think,and, again, from the service that you've done and, as a mental health counselor, what we do at Team Rubicon is ideally just one piece of that ecosystem that surrounds and holds and cares for our military Veterans. That's one piece of it. And then you step back more broadly and depending on whatever stage of life they're in, it's family. It's school, it's career transitions, it's all of these different things that happen in varying sequences or different points of emphasis. And in this journey, ideally people are weaving back and forth and finding the comfort they need through this network. And they're surrounded by people who understand how it can be curated.
And I think one of the neat things that were beginning to see now, we're certainly seeing it as civilian volunteer population begins to increase is now you begin to have these collisions of civilians and military Veterans. Where they're in a situation where they're working side by side and they're sharing in the sweat equity.
And they're talking about their questions in these different things. And you begin to have an understanding of who each other are and you build these networks that really become true communities. And it's a really virtuous outcome. And the final piece that I think is really important too, is then you can begin to identify and refer to people who begin to need these interventions or these reminders of the amazing services that can be pried at across the country. So we can use these act of kinship and fellowship and brotherhood or sisterhood, get them the services they need. And the times that again is as they experienced different things in their lives they need.
DUANE: And, the gap has only been overcome through a bridge. And being a resource to bring some people from the non-military side into that gap and somebody from the, oh, I don't want to work with civilians. And all of a sudden, you're knee deep in a mud hole with them for a couple of hours. And then that thing breaks down.And again, there's this idea of more than just, supporting Veterans and you've referred to it a couple of times. There's never going to be a world without need. There's always going to be another mission for those that are looking for it.
One of the most recent efforts Team Rubicon has become involved with is the resettlement of Afghan refugees in cities across the country. You referred to it not as disaster relief, but it's really humanitarian support. That actually fits well both within the structure of the organization and your overall mission.
ART: Yeah. We like to broadly define a disaster as a rapid onset of unmet needs. And in August, as we watched all of this transpire on the television sets and through the news, we didn't have the ability to project gray shirts into Afghanistan to help people get through the gates that. We didn't have the ability to influence who was on the airplanes. But we knew our Afghan allies would end up in the United States.
And I think the government agencies did. And as we stood there in this moment where, convened by the State Department of Health and Human Services, FEMA. One of the neat things we were able to do when they said we need someone who can manage donated goods as our Afghan allies land at these bases with nothing but the clothes on their back. They're lucky, maybe it's a backpack, but certainly after the bombing there, at the base, it pretty much went away. And we kind of raised our hand and we said, you know what? We have no idea how to do this, but we've got amazing men and women. They understand the process. They have skills. We can learn on the fly, just like,a Corporal or an Airman or a Seaman would say, you know, when their skipper looked at them and said, I had no idea this was on the mission, but we've got to do it.
They raised their hands and they said, they'd figure it out. And sure as could be pretty soon, we were at McGuire and Atterbury, Quantico, Fort Lee, Fort McCoy, Fort Pickett, Fort Bliss and volunteers coming to us saying, I want to help, but what was so unique about it is a lot of these veterans were Post- 9/11.
A lot of the civilians who came out and joined had connections or watched 20 years of warfare happen, a lot of them wanted to be on the front edge of saying to these men and women and children who are landing on these bases. We believe we can contribute to ensuring you have the opportunity at the American dream.
And it was this unbelievable call to action that resulted not just in getting materials to people, but bringing a community together to help. The first base I went to was Fort McCoy up in Wisconsin. And to see Wisconsin's Quilting Network come together and say, they're going to need blankets to see the Minnesota Twins come together and say, we've got to make sure that they have clothes for the winter.
To have the Salvation Army and all of these different agents come together and say, okay, let's make sure we're finding and sorting the right culturally appropriate materials. Let's make sure we're getting shoes and let's make sure we're covering the need for kids to be kids and things like soccer balls and bookbags and bicycles, showing up.
It was a real point of pride for this organization. I think it was an act of continued service that every military Veteran man or woman understood because they've stood on that ground or ground across the world. Like I know you have. And,it was an immense moment of pride and it could have been a disaster. It could have been a massive disaster. But people stood up and said, let's figure out what we can do again, on those bases in these early days to make sure men, women and children had what they needed.
DUANE: Now that puts me in mind of the stories that we've heard coming in the aftermath of 9/11, like in New York, levels of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in VietnamVeterans actually went down after that, because in and I've spoken to some Vietnam Veterans who said, there was a need and I felt like I had a purpose.
There was a measure of service that was needed. There was something that somebody needed that I could put my hand to. And that sounds again, here we are 20 years later and you say these are 9/11 Veterans who served in Afghanistan, that regardless of anything else that happened, that felt almost exactly the same.
ART: Yeah. And it was really interesting because I think that sentiment spanned a lot of different generations. As you probably know, a lot of military Veterans struggled in those early days of the transition and the evacuation. And it was interesting for us because a lot of our Vietnam Veterans would actually stand up, they would organize people around our digital campfire, and they'd say, “Hey, listen, if you need someone to talk to let me share the experiences that I had, let me share what I've learned and let's talk.”
It was neat to see this multi intergenerational Veteran network moment come together and have a discussion and understanding. It was civilians and Vietnam Veterans and Posy 9/11 Veterans, and anything in between. And just have this discussion openly about what they're feeling.
And that's based on the campfires I had sat through that is not something that the Vietnam Veterans, like your father had on their return. So it's real. If there was ever a silver lining in something as tragic as having to evacuate people from their country. I guess at least, now we also found healing across our Veteran community, by sharing life experiences, across different conflicts.
DUANE: And also that point that you made, that yes, that first, and I would say about 10 to 12 days was very hard for me. I served in Afghanistan twice. But then very quickly we turn it around because Veterans are action-oriented right. We're used to doing something. and there was that turning point. Like I said, it seemed to be about 12 or 13 days after it all began that the anguish was turned into action.
ART: Yeah, I think that's not uncommon. I think one of the things military Veterans have been good at. And again, this goes back to the unique schools we graduated from. The skills and experience allow them to be able to inventory what's around them. They can look at situations and go, what can I control and what can I not control and create a clear divide.
And then they go into action, right? So if you're at Fort McCoy or Milwaukee or in Chicago, you understand you can't control getting people onto that airplane. You understand, you can't intervene with the Taliban on streets, as people are trying to get to an airport, but you say I can make a difference here..
I can run a collection in my neighborhood. I can show up at Fort McCoy. I can volunteer. I used to be a translator. You know that I have language skills. I can do this. And we apply ourselves in these situations to make a difference in that moment. And it's great for that person.
That's volunteering, right? It is literally the call to action they've been waiting for and they get out there and do it. It's really a story. I think of just proof again, of the extraordinary ability that men and women who've worn the uniform have in the moment.
DUANE: And I think again, the other piece of the story is organizations again, like the ones that we've mentioned, like Team Rubicon. Being there to stand up and raise your hand and say, we're going to do this right. And giving people a vessel for service. Again, huge fan, whether it's the blue shirt, the red shirt or the gray shirt in my closet. Right? Which one am I going to choose? I really value what Team Rubicon is doing. If people want to find out more about Team Rubicon, maybe follow you on social media, how can they?
ART: Yeah, you can just go to a https://teamrubiconusa.org/ or you can search for Team Rubicon across the different social media platforms. And we'd love for you to become advocates for our mission. We'd love for you to consider joining the organization and volunteering. We're actually taking the model. We just finished talking about Dwayne for the basis where we are getting donated goods and distributing them.
And we're taking them to a town near you more than likely we're in Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Denver, Lorton, Virginia, Salem, Oregon, and San Antonio, Warren, Dallas. So we know that as these Afghan allies transition off the bases and into the communities, the same needs are going to be there. So take a look at https://teamrubiconusa.org/ and consider joining the mission or supporting the mission or at the very least sharing it. And if you're a military Veteran out there, don't be selfish with the skills and experience you have because frankly the nation needs you to come forward at this time again.
DUANE: Service doesn't end when our services are over. Absolutely. I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes. Thanks for coming on the show today, Art.
ART: Thank you for having me, I I’m Duane.
Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory. That's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. And you can find more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.
It was great to highlight the work that Team Rubicon is doing and how Art’s journey is so similar to many other Veterans leaving the military. One of the first points that I would like to make is to highlight how Art became CEO of one of the nation's leading Veteran support organizations by simply walking down the street and offering to help. This isn't something that I hear often in discussions of post-military occupational development, the emphasis is usually on resumes, interview skills, networking. But in my experience, and as you heard with Art, the concept of strategic volunteering is one that can lead to unexpected benefits, both socially and occupationally.
Strategic volunteering is finding a sector or industry that you're interested in. Select an organization that's doing work in that industry and start to volunteer with that organization. This does several things. First, it helps you understand that this sector is all that you hoped and dreamed that it would be. Second, it gives you valuable experience in a career field that you hope to get into. And third, it puts you in a position to hear about and take advantage of opportunities within that field.
I get it. When we all get out of the military, the bills still need to get paid. So, I'm not saying that a Veteran should work for free for 40 hours a week. There's no expectation on the part of organizations that are seeking volunteers and that's not sustainable, but if you're like Art in his post-military career, where he found something missing, he went down the Team Rubicon’s headquarters and started volunteering his time. Not with the expectation that someday he would come on the staff. I'm sure. But just to do good work with the good organization. I can trace both my first and second job after leaving the military to a choice of volunteering as a peer mentor to local Veterans court.
I happen to be in a meeting where a fellow volunteers shared a paid opportunity at a local homeless Veteran housing program. While working there, I was also connected to the organization providing behavioral health support to Veterans court and started working with them.
It's unlikely that I would've even known about either of these two opportunities if I hadn't volunteered my time. Again, without any expectation that it may lead to a job, but also with the flexibility to take advantage of opportunities that presented themselves. So if you're a Veteran or work with an organization that supports Veterans, helping them find meaning and purpose in their post-military life may be fulfilled by seeking out and providing volunteer opportunities with organizations in your community.
The other point that I'd like to make is how Art's transition story is similar to the story of many other service members leaving the military. With Veterans I work with, I described leaving the military as a metaphorical tunnel. There's a point in which you're in the military. Then there is a tunnel between that point and another point in which you become something different.
More than just a Veteran, but for Art, how he describes himself as a humanitarian leading a disaster relief organization. For me, more than just a Veteran, but a behavioral health professional, or whatever we choose to become in post-military life. Back to the tunnel. It's not very well lit. It's never a straight shot where you can see the light at the other end. It's often filled with obstacles and the length of the tunnel is different for everyone.
There are some Veterans who simply start into the tunnel after they leave the military and then turn around and sit down, looking back at the military, not making a full transition into post-military life, but hanging on to their military identity in such a way that they never really move forward in their lives.
Then there are those Veterans who wander into the tunnel and get stuck. The tunnel is long, dark and filled with significant obstacles. Tunnel may seem more like a maze that's trapping them. Relationship struggles, occupational struggles, justice involvement, untreated mental health concerns.
Whole gamut of individualized struggles often happening without anyone else understanding what's going on. Then at some point, hopefully the Veteran comes out of the tunnel. I have a friend and a colleague who worked with student Veterans as a behavioral health counselor. As a Veteran himself, he said he could tell when a Veteran made that transition because they stopped hanging out only with other Veterans and started hanging out with other econ majors or other pre-med majors.
Art talked about making the shift away from his Military identity into a fully integrated post-military identity. For some Veterans, they move on down that post tunnel path and succeed in politics or tech or some other sector. Their military experience, the fact that they're a Veteran is part of who they were, but not entirely who they are. And for some Veterans like both art and myself, we choose to go back into the tunnel and help the Veterans, struggling with that transition move beyond that difficult time. We approached the tunnel from the other end, with the goal of helping others do the same.
And the seven years since I retired from the military, I've consistently worked with, and for Veterans in the social support space either in homelessness or behavioral health. I still think and talk about the military daily. I've made it part of my post-military life and I'm perfectly happy with that.
I know others who have moved on to careers in sales or supply chain logistics or political office, and only rarely engage in military and Veteran related efforts. And that's okay too. It's always a journey, never a destination, but getting through that difficult transition period between who we were in the military and who we've become, and post-military life is a critical step in that journey. And I'm glad that Art and Team Rubicon are there as one resource to help those who serve to be able to do that.
I know I shared a similar resource the week in the last show, but for this week's PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share another podcast episode featuring a leader in the Veteran support space. My conversation with Mary Beth Brighaman, Executive Director of the Mission Continues. Like Team Rubicon, the mission continues as a national nonprofit supporting both Veterans and those who care for them as well as the communities that service members, Veterans and their families live in. We talk about similar themes in that episode that we discussed in this one and hearing from the leaders of national Veteran service organizations is always beneficial. You can check out the episode through a link in the show notes.