Episode 99 Transcription

Welcome to episode 99 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts.

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission, our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with army combat veteran, Crystal Ellington. Crystal is a dynamic agile storyteller who is passionate about speaking up for those who have historically been disenfranchised. Systematically excluded and institutionally oppressed. She is a fellow in the George W. Bush Institute, Stand To Veterans Leadership Program, the Veterans program for politics and civic engagement at Syracuse University and the new politics leadership academy. Crystal is co-founder for veterans at the intersection and founder and CEO at gen Onyx consulting, LLC. You can find out more about crystal by checking out her bio in our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points. 

[00:00:00] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: Crystal, so glad to be able to have you on the show to share your story.

I'm looking forward to getting into a conversation about the need for awareness of increasing diversity in the military and veteran population. But before we get into that, I'd love to provide an opportunity for you to share a bit about yourself and why you're doing the work that you're doing.

[00:00:16] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Absolutely Dwayne, and thank you so much for having me here this morning. I'm super excited to get into some of the meat and potatoes of some of the issues that are plaguing our armed forces, specifically racism and discrimination within the military. so a little bit about my origin story. I served from 2017 to 2021, so I am freshly out of the military very recently.

but while I was in, I was the subject of a little bit of ire, because I was very vocal about my need to show up as my full self, as at least as much as I could in uniform. And there were some microaggressions, when I served and it was very, I don't necessarily know the right word for it, but it was very disappointing because you hear so much about how I don't see color, the other only color I see is green.

[00:01:05] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: and we're all brothers and sisters in arms, but that camaraderie reaches a limit. And I think the more intersections that you sit at, there are even more limits and even more ways for folks to ostracize you within the military. If you don't fit within that homogenous culture, it becomes difficult to integrate frankly. So I had some experience with discrimination and microaggressions, and then unfortunately I also was a victim of military sexual assault while I served. so those two things really got me on fire about making sure that a, the folks that. We're perpetuating these ideas and these negative stereotypes were, called out frankly.

And also to make sure that other service members that came after me wouldn't have. So that's my passion.

[00:01:58] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: you know, this, the idea of the endurance of microaggressions. when in the military, you know, there, especially those who are listening who may have served, understand that, people throw elbows, they're sharp edges. There's, it's, and not to say, severe and inappropriate, but barracks talk, motor pool talk, like it's a, the military's sort of a rough edge kind of place, but, A lot of people are realizing that some of that rough edge conversation or some of the comments really, like you said, cross the line into true microaggressions and discriminatory judgment against race, gender, ethnicity, sexual expression, and orientation and things like that.

. So I'll give you an example. so I was getting ready to go to my very first promotion board. I was sitting with a senior NCO of mine. We were sitting and talking about. You know how to do facing movements and certain questions I could be asked. It was a very focused time for me. I was very serious about getting promoted.

I am a bit of an overachiever , so I'm sitting there and another senior NCO comes in and looks me directly in the face and says, how do you feel about the confederate flag? And I was so taken aback because I'm in promotion mode. I am. The mode of answering trivia questions essentially about the military.

[00:03:17] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: So to be blindsided with such a,a weighted, heavy loaded question like that, it's just an example of how the duality of black service members and how we have to show up every day in a certain way. So we're not bringing shame on the race because we're representatives wherever we go of our race, unfortunately.

So having to really think about the next thing that I say, instead of being able to have an open and candid conversation about race, I had to be aware of that double consciousness of mine, like the consciousness that yes, I am a serving service member. I put my hand up to defend my country. and I am also a black person that has not necessarily had the best experiences in this country, and having to deal with that and juxtapose those two against each other, in the middle of the workday, it's mental gymnastics every single day.

[00:04:16] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: and even to that experience. even if, regardless, even if you were. a a male service member, let's say, but if you were a Hispanic female service member, that question likely would not have been asked, or even another service member of color. it was specifically related to you and who you were and who you were expressing yourself to be.

, but also, I, it shocks me, I get really upset when I hear other NCOs acting in ways that are inappropriate. but just a, a,a total lack of consideration of what you were preparing to do, what you were like, like it wasn't necessary, like it was a necessary conversation to have only not at that precise moment.

because, Not only would it cause you considerable amount of emotion and mental gymnastics. It could throw you off your game and likely impact your promotion, which it wouldn't have happened if you were, for example, a, a Caucasian female soldier going up to the board,

[00:05:08] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Absolutely. I 110% agree, and I think that a lot of my coworkers and my NCOs knew that I was someone that was very vocal and. Very, adamant. My duality and my intersectionality. I wasn't the type of person that was like, oh, not gonna say anything here. I'm not gonna defend someone that is being berated or they're, having microaggressions against them.

No, I'm going to speak up. And my unit didn't like that. Needless to say. but I totally would agree with that. I did not see, I didn't bear witness to any other discrimination against any other people of color. not to say that it didn't happen, but that just wasn't something that I saw. So having that question asked directly of me was almost an act of aggression.

I felt like it wasn't even micro anymore. It was aggressive.

[00:06:04] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: Yeah.

[00:06:06] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: And I wasn't exactly sure how I was even supposed to answer that question and still stay respectful because it was asked of me of a Caucasian nco.

and I think this is one of the things, and I retired from the Army after 22 years in 2014. obviously spending, well over half of my career post nine 11, have seen how the military changed from the mid nineties. when I first. and then the generational shift and even understanding my father,having served in Vietnam and worked with a lot of veterans as a clinician who served in earlier years.

the military is changing. Like you, you are an example of how the military is significantly changing. And of course that means the veteran population is changing. One of the important things that many people need to know is that today's generation of veterans is more diverse than previous generations, racially, ethnically, gender expression, sexual orientation.

[00:06:56] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: While there's much to be celebrated in that, I get the sense that we're at a point of needing to educate people that not everyone experienced the military in the same way, just how you talked

about.

[00:07:07] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Absolutely. So, the topic of how the generations are changing within the military, it's very nuanced, right? So you have Gen X, then millennials,

and then Gen Z.

So really seeing how different it is from your generation to my generation was already interesting because you all were the generation that, you know, you talked to people on your house phones, you had dial up, you remember having times playing outside before the internet was even invented, and now you have Gen Z. I have no idea what's going on in Gen Z. Like, I don't know what music they listen to. They're on like 17 social platforms. but all that to say, when you have this new generation that is very technologically savvy,is more aware of social issues and current events, they're educated, they're smart, they educate themselves.

but I would be remiss if I was to say that there is another side to that where you are seeing. Instances of extremism because these service members are finding ways to make community with hatred, unfortunately. so there is that level of education of d e I that needs to be included with service members because a lot of people don't know what they don't know.

And so I think it would behoove the military as a whole to make sure that there is a holistic approach for these service members. So not only making sure that they're mission ready and that they have all the things they need to, actively succeed as they're serving, but also to make sure that hey, you're a person as well.

And I think. A lot of people in your generation have thoughts and feelings about, bringing up the issue of race and bringing up the issue of gender diversity or whatever intersection of the, that a service member may sit at. there's this reluctance to talk about things because it's never been done.

It's always been, oh, we don't, we don't touch this topic. We don't, you know, don't ask, don't tell. It's was a thing in your generation. I think people need to understand that in order to effectively move forward and to be a more mission ready battle for us, we have to make sure that we're addressing those microaggressions.

We have to make sure that we're addressing, the homogeneity of the military as a whole and that culture, the bro culture, you know, and a lot of the, we discussed before we got on in the special operations, special forces worlds, um, we really need to make sure that. , these folks understand that they're not the only folks that serve.it's interesting that you bring up that need for education, and you're right, I absolutely do recognize the need for education,in my generation. so Gen X, and I even served when I joined in the nineties, they were still people. In the early nineties, there were still people from the late Vietnam era, right?

[00:09:56] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: So I had served with even a previous generation. and then there was that transition from me into the next one. and a couple things that, what you just said made me think of, is that in the late nineties when I was in the 82nd Airborne Division I had two soldiers in my platoon.

One was a young black man, one was a young white man. neither had much interaction with the other. At any point growing up in their life, so one was from Mississippi, one was from Alabama, one was from a predominantly black community, and that's all he knew. One was from a predominantly white community, and that's all he knew.

And of course there was tension between the two of them. Right. And there was, there, there was aggression between the two of them. but then I think about my own personal experience and I grew up in St. Louis, which if listeners may not know, it's a very. Racially and ethnically diverse, but also an extremely segregated, 

[00:10:43] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Mm. 

[00:10:44] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: like from street to street, almost community to community.

But I grew up in a,racially diverse family. my grandmother was, Mexican. I have my half-brother is, his mother is Hispanic. but but also I've got, my nephew is black, my brother-in-law is black. And so I grew. Experiencing and understanding the need for diversity, having those conversations, the need to have those conversations, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, and other members of my family expressing significant racism that I absolutely abor and shied away from and don't communicate with that part of.

So I go, went into the military with the measure of understanding and being able to have those conversations where, you're right, other members of my, my generation didn't. . We weren't educating

like it. It was either you had that background or you didn't, I guess is what I'm trying to say. 

[00:11:33] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Right. And I totally agree with that. either you had it or you didn't. I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, which is also a very diverse but segregated city as well. and when I served, I remember going through a i t, which is the training that we have for our. Occupational Specialties, and I also ran across a young soldier that he told me he had never seen a black person before until he got to a i t.

And 

[00:12:01] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: and this was 2017, like this wasn't 1952.

 still happening. I also think that people need to bring a certain level of curiosity to learn because I think once that curiosity is there and you're able to ask those questions, . so really creating that environment of curiosity, but also creating a safe environment where folks that may not know things or are wanting to ask uncomfortable questions can really do so, because once we have the uncomfortable questions out in the open, that's how we change minds and hearts.

[00:12:32] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: That's how we really educate folks. As to what's really happening in the world and within the military because military is, is a microcosm of the, culture at large. So if there is gonna be, you know, segregation and discrimination and microaggressions, all the military does is create a magnifying glass within that environment.

And, that's just what we have. 

[00:12:56] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: and you've mentioned before about intersectionality and the concepts of intersectionality and different expressions of identity. And so going back to the idea of not everyone's experience in the military is the same. My experience as a male in the military is necessarily different than yours as a female.

My experience as a senior non-commissioned officer white male is different than your experience as a junior non-commissioned officer, black female, and all of these different intersectional identities coming together, like you said, creates that much more of a unique experience and

often that much more of a, a challenging or difficult experience. 

[00:13:31] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Oh, absolutely. I can talk about this all day. I'm 

only gonna get on my soapbox for a little bit . So really understanding. Again, going back to how I was talking about earlier, how we have to show up as soldiers. So I think that really understanding mental health and really understanding how people of color, specifically black people need to be seen They need to be seen in marketing. They need to be represented in, Being promoted and really seeing that leadership at the top level. but I think a lot of the stress and strife that people of color are going through, it can't continue to be bottled up. We can't continue to keep ignoring the elephant in the room.

And I think one of the ways that black service members and black veterans really can take control of. Mental health journey is really talking to someone because it's not something that can continue to be swept under the rug because when we don't talk about it, we're only perpetuating the culture that's already happening.

but yeah, I'm, like I said, I'm not gonna get on that soapbox all day.

[00:14:39] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: No, I, and, but you're right. And, and so I think there's that idea of, you know, and you go back to earlier you were talking about this idea of, you know, it's all one uniform, it's all green, but, but we're all individuals within the military, right. Within that experience. and then there's the need to reach out and talk to someone.

and even the more intersectionality you might have when we were actually talking about this before we. Started recording too is the more intersectionality you have, the harder it might be to find a mental health professional that looks like you or has the same background and experience. So there's a, there is a measure of trust in some, some need to be flexible, but not only, you're not just on the side of the service member that's seeking help, but the mental health professionals absolutely need to understand that intersectionality.

[00:15:21] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: again. I absolutely, I think this is a conversation that we could have, all day. but I also wanted to touch on another topic that, that you are very passionate about, and rightly so,the topic of military sexual trauma. We know that this is an unfortunately, frequent occurrence for both men and women in the military.

There have been a number of attempts over the recent years to make a difference in how

sexual harassment and assault are addressed, reported, and. 

[00:15:43] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Yes. so. I, again, as you mentioned, was a victim of military sexual trauma and it really made me think, you know, am I the only one that's going through this? Like this is something that is extremely difficult to even just get through a day at work. so I felt very alone and isolated and alienated, while I was going through that.

 And then I began to talk to more service members and began to talk to more, even just military contractors, about the sexual trauma. That was happening within the military. It's not just women. You know, men also go through these things too, but they're less likely to report because of the stigma that comes along with it.

[00:16:21] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: So when I got out of the military, I knew that I wanted to do something to make a difference in how, this situation was handled. So while I was with minority Vets of America, which is my prior employer, amazing nonprofit outta Seattle, shout out to nba. We worked directly with some of the folks that were involved with the Vanessa Guillen case and the foundation that grew out of that.

and then the I am Vanessa Guillen Act was passed not too long ago. And then we also got some sexual assault reform and the N D A A. so really making sure that we're taking the cases outta the hands of the folks that will. to perpetuate the stigma that was already happening, but also make sure that the folks that have gone through these traumas aren't further traumatized and victimized.

so we're really trying to take those cases out of the chain of command because the chain of command could be good buddies with the person that actually committed the sexual assault. So making sure that we have someone that is, unbiased. And, working as a third party to really get to the crux of these military sexual assault cases, because that's also how we're gonna get better data.

We're gonna get a better understanding of the environments in which this is happening in, because until we really understand those things, and also make sure that the data is representative of the folks that are going through the trauma. So it's not just white folks, it's not just straight women or straight men.

making sure that we are parsing down that data to understand how we can move the needle forward to essentially zero out sexual assault because it is something that does not need to happen. It's not something that. Unpreventable. So really understanding, what we're actually looking at here is how we can move the needle forward to make sure there isn't one person that has to.

[00:18:10] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: No, I, I absolutely, I applaud you and appreciate your efforts and, and,and absolutely reducing in eliminating sexual assaults. because, and you'd think that it doesn't need to happen. And there's this phrase, especially we used. The army, something that's, against good order and discipline.

I can't think of anything more that would be against, good order and discipline than one, soldier, sexually assaulting another, , but then there's this idea of not just eliminating sexual assaults, but reducing that near constant sexual harassment. Or even going back to those microaggressions you talked about.

I've got a service member or a colleague that she used to say that she used to strategically plan when she would make copies because the copier was in a very small room and that she would make it very early before people came in or make copies afterwards. Typically if there were other people in the office that people would brush up against her or just or making comments about the size of different body parts about trying to move around.

[00:19:05] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: Just unnecessary. and so almost the concept of not just racial microaggressions, but also micro sexual harassment, micro comments and things like that. Not micro in the magnitude, but in the sort of continuum of harassment to assault by eliminating. Assault saying that's not acceptable. Also saying that this culture of

near 

constant sexual comments and innuendos is also not acceptable.

[00:19:32] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Agreed. and then it goes back to what I was referring to earlier as the, bro culture, where, you know, you have like the, that's what she said, the you know, the comments like that. And I understand that those things are said in jest, but there's always truth in jest. Right. And really understanding that the level at which it makes someone uncomfortable and.

in your example, that soldier has to be strategic on when she makes copies. That is absolutely insane to me. the fact that people can't just go about their day and do their jobs for fear of being called out on their gender or something that has to do with their gender. and it just adds another layer of intersectionality between being a soldier and coming to work every day and doing your job.

Like for instance, I was a helicopter. my job was very involved. It was very tedious. You know, if you left out a screw, someone could die. like this, aircraft could fall out of the sky. our senior NCOs would always tell us, like, you have to make sure you do the maintenance right, because you can't just pull over in the sky.

Like you have to make sure things are right before you get off the ground. but. Having to deal with also being a woman in a very straight, cis head, white male environment. again, I talk about that double consciousness and really having to maneuver, on a daily basis and do that mental gymnastics of, let me make sure I don't order my uniform pants too tight, or let me make sure that. For example, when I would go to PT in the morning, the NCOs would tell me not to wear, sleeveless, shirts. Like I couldn't wear like a spaghetti strap top or something. And I'm like, are you guys turned on my shoulders? Like what is happening? I just came up here to do pt. I was a PT stud. I will self proclaim that, but having to come up here and worry about what I'm wearing because I'm being sexualized, that should not have to be something that I am concerned about in the military.

[00:21:26] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: No, a absolutely, and I think this is one of the things is there's a lot of very. positive things about the military, you know, it, it builds resiliency, it creates it, it creates camaraderie. Right. You know, again, I think even before this conversation, you and I having similar experiences in being able to bond over our shared military experience, but also not to cover over the fact that there is, there are still again, , it's 2021.

And there are still things happening that if people heard it, they would think that it was like the early days before, civil rights, um, those things are still occurring and we can't ignore them. and I appreciate you for being one of the many voices, but a very necessary voice in making sure that doesn't happen.

So if people wanted to find out more about the work that you're doing, if they wanted to get involved, if they maybe wanted to engage

with you to sort of share more about the things that you're doing, how can they

do. 

[00:22:17] crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Absolutely. So a really big part of my work all of the projects that I'm involved in, all of the. associations and the VSOs are all on my LinkedIn,so feel free to search me. by name, crystal Ellington. Um,and I'll be sure to follow you back if you follow me. And, really staying engaged with what's happening in the cultural landscape of the military.

really understanding that policy is going to be the thing that moves the needle in terms of making sure that these military sexual assault cases are handled. An unbiased manner, making sure that we're not having those microaggressions and racism, that service members have to endure every day. So to get involved with a vsso that's doing work in the community.

VSSO such as Psych Armor, who is an amazing organization that does education, as we were talking about before, about mental health, veterans for political innovation, um, minority Veterans of America. I could go on all day, but just making sure that veterans and service members are staying engaged in, matters that happen to folks that may not look like them because we certainly need allies and we need folks.

[00:23:27] duane--_19_11-19-2022_084823: Absolutely. I love that and I will make sure

that the links to 

all of those are in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, crystal.

[00:23:34]crystal-ellington--she-her-black-_1_11-19-2022_094823: Thank you so much, Duane.

Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom training options for organizations.

Hopefully listeners can tell that I really enjoy Having meaningful conversations with guests. Like the conversation that we just share with crystal. As she mentioned in the discussion, we need to have more conversations like this. Real and honest conversations about the reality of what is happening. 

Instead of pretending like things were okay and that there's nothing wrong With what's going on in the military or even in our society. One that is an unproductively narrowed way of looking at things. But two, it would go against the evidence of what we're seeing around us And of the things that we know happened in the military and the context of our own service. The silence about racism, discrimination, prejudice, sexual harassment, and assault. The fact that these are things that we don't call out, or we don't talk about are the reasons why they continue to happen. 

Like I said in our discussion, there are a great things about the military. Any measure of success that I have personally achieved in my life is as a direct result of my time in the army and that's been true for many people. The discipline, the leadership, the global perspective, not to mention the educational opportunities, healthcare, all of the benefits of military service. 

At the same time, I don't know of anyone who served in the military, who says that they have not witnessed racism, discrimination, sexual harassment, and assault and other unacceptable behaviors. Even when people are vocal about their opposition to this behavior, they can be ridiculed, belittled, or ostracized. 

The hierarchical structure of the military is so structured, drilled into you that the positive things that it can promote the accomplishment of critical missions, the amazing things that could be done through coordinated effort. Is also the structure that can be abused by perpetuating injustice. There was one point in my career where I was questioned about my loyalty to the unit. When I was advocating for one of my section sergeants who had been blatantly, sexually harassed in front of numerous witnesses. 

That because I wouldn't just let it go. I was making the unit look bad to higher headquarters. The Army's creative. The non-commission officer has a phrase that for me was the core of what I saw as my own personal leadership philosophy. 

My two basic responsibilities will always be upper. Most of my mind. The accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. There were many times as I was reminded by my superiors, that I often landed a little too much on the side of the welfare of my soldiers, especially if I thought the mission was asinine or irrelevant, although I didn't express it that way when I was in the military. But part of that basic responsibility for the welfare of my soldiers is to not subject them to abuse, discrimination, or harassment and protect them when they are subjected to them. 

I'm not talking about treating them with kid gloves or making the military easy. That's usually where these conversations go where tough love advocates. think that talking about equity and fairness and treatment equals weakness. But there's a vast difference between calling someone a knucklehead and using derogatory language about someone's race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. 

Language changes over time and words matter. A colleague of mine often uses the example of how we refer to those who were unhoused. He says, we used to call people who lived in the streets, windows and bombs, And now we call them homeless or unhoused. The words we use change how we interact with them. 

you would react differently to someone you saw as a whiner or a bomb compared to someone you saw as homeless or unhoused. For one thing, calling people winos and bombs is a lot less compassionate and a lot more judgmental And compassion and non-judgmentalness is not a weakness. It's a strength. So we know that there is language and behavior. Now that is entirely unacceptable. Where it wasn't thought of as unacceptable, 30 or 40 years ago. And words, change behaviors change through having real and honest conversations about necessary subjects like crystal is having. I've always said that I learned something new from each of my guests, But on re-listening I was struck again about how crystal helped me understand her perspective on my generation's approach. 

To discussions about race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. She's right. It wasn't something that we talked about. , as she said, you either had the knowledge you didn't, and those who had the understanding. Didn't always share that understanding with those who thought the opposite, which again, to Crystal's point, perpetuates the injustice and causes the generational friction. 

10 years from now, the conversation will have changed and necessarily so hopefully for the better, although crystal points out how changes in technology and social media. I mean that more people are being radicalized and engaging in extremist rhetoric Through increasingly segmented communication channels. But decades from now, the people of the future, going to look back at this period in history, the way that we look back to the era of Jim Crow laws and for segregation, it's inconceivable that a society would have been able to operate that way. 

We have come a long way, but we have so, so much farther to go. I'm glad that veterans like crystal are there to help us to have these important conversations. So hopefully you appreciated my conversation with crystal. 

If you did drop a review in your podcast player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We always appreciate hearing from listeners feedback on the show and suggestions for future guests.

For this week’s PsychArmor Resource of the Week, I'd like to share three previous podcast episodes that you might appreciate. If you enjoyed my conversation with crystal and episode 56, we featured a conversation with Navy veteran, Jerome Tennille as he talked about the convergence between community-based volunteerism, and DEI principles. In episode 20, we had a conversation with Jennifer Dane from the modern military association of America and the need to advocate for LGBTQ plus service members and veterans. And in episode 12, we had a conversation with retired army officer Dr. Samuel Odom and currently serving army officer first, Lieutenant Marlon Dortch about their work as military social workers and the importance of diversity from a military social worker perspective. You can find the link to all three of those podcast episodes in our show notes.