Episode 98 Transcription

Welcome to episode 98 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts.

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission, our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

 On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Kelcey Liverpool, founder and executive director of kids rank an organization founded in 2012. Designed to specifically support the social and emotional wellbeing of military connected children. As a Navy spouse for 17 years, moving with their family, a total of nine times and volunteering in several roles at various military installation agencies, she understands firsthand the challenges that are faced by children and families of service members and veterans. You can find out more about Kelcey by checking out her bio in our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.

[00:00:00] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: So Kelsey, I'm grateful to be able to share your story and the mission of Kids Rank on the podcast. Before we talk about the very important work that you're doing, I think it'll be helpful for listeners to hear the story behind your mission and why it was so important for you to support military.

[00:00:15] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Absolutely. Good morning. Thank you for having me today. I was a military spouse for 17 years,Navy and, did the moving and transitioning every few years. and had two children of my own, who we moved from stateside, in a few different places and then over to Japan, for. , a little while and then back to Illinois.

and so seeing all of those transitions that my own children had to go through, I felt like they needed some support that I wasn't really seeing in our community at the time.

and having that a Navy background, you know, I have an army background, even service by service. It can be very different like when you,Join a Navy family, so to speak, or a family member joins the Navy, you know that they're gonna be out to sea for six months a year. like that's baked into it.

[00:01:02] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: And so you know that there's gonna be separation. Other services, maybe not so much. but that's something that you realize that you're gonna sign up for when you join military. Families

I did not realize that I don't come from a mil, I mean, my dad was in Vietnam, but in the army, that was before me. And, and so my parents are artists and so my background has nothing to do with military. And so marrying into this,he joined after we were together and, and so I didn't.

[00:01:31] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: You know, as a young spouse, what that looked like and what that separation and kind of isolation would be like, until I was in it. And so I think you're correct. deployment and separation can be different by branches of service. Navy, when we were in Japan, he was gone eight months out of the year each year for three years.

but I think that happens in many duty stations. he taught bootcamp. for a while, which one of his billets. And so he was working five in the morning till 10 at night, seven days a week, for eight weeks straight. And from the perspective of children, Gone as gone, whether you are serving, in more traditional,deployment as people think of it to like Iraq or Afghanistan or something like that, in kind of war zones.

in, as you mentioned in the Navy, there's deployment, just consistent war time or not. and for kids, separation is separation and, youmissed. holidays, you know, all of those are really important, from a child's perspective. And when their parent isn't there or they're having to continue to transition it, it can be really difficult.

I really appreciate how you brought that up. as you mentioned, if your, spouse was a, a drill instructor, I was a recruiter for three years.

[00:02:35] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: Um, and my children were toddlers. and the whole joke was, oh,you have your head in the pillow every night.

Well, that's the only time you get to be in the house. and my children, I think, and this is, they were very young toddlers at the point. and they remember me leaving when it's dark and coming back when it's dark. And like our family outings, were part of like recruiting events.

[00:02:53] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: No, I mean that we did, he did recruiting as well. Always arduous duties and so, you know, I did a calculation and we saw him more when we lived in Japan and he was gone eight months out of the year than we did when he recruited. just because of, the long hours and,and that's the thing.

And then when you come home from that, you're exhausted. even the time with family can be, difficult or challenging, because you as the service member working that number of hours, it is. demanding. yeah, it just is, it's not for the faint of heart. and then, on the other side of that, I, it's something that I've been talking about a little more now.

I now am divorced. We were 17 years in, and, and this is the other side of it, having to go through this, a very, trying. separation, we grew up and grew apart basically. but I felt like I lost my identity when we got divorced because I no longer had, a military id.

[00:03:43] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: And so I'm serving these families now, but also have, this internal struggle of oh, I'm no longer a spouse, and I think that can apply to children too. You mentioned your, father being a Vietnam veteran. My father was also a Vietnam veteran. and he served five years before I was born. So I grew up as a veteran. Son and a nephew of veterans and a grandson of veterans. But I never grew up as a service mayor.

[00:04:05] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: I had cousins who had their, they were in the Air Force. But like you, you grew up as the daughter of a veteran, but then a spouse of a service member. And now your children are transitioning that. And I think about when my daughter went to college, she had a little bit of that loss of identity too, because now she's no longer in this military culture space.

and she's, she's going to college with people that have known each other for 10 or 15.

[00:04:28] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Absolutely. it is, it's so interesting to think of, I remember my kids saying to me once, we're moving again and, maybe their friends would move. And I said, no, honey, they, this is where they live, . This is where they're gonna stay. This is where they're gonna grow up.

But to your point about. Culture and that loss of identity. But it also is true that over 50% of our currently serving are children are veterans. half the kids that we serve will one day potentially be in service. My household fits that demographic. my, older daughter is a senior at, Howard University, but she also is a coasty.

She joined last summer, and so she is now,in service. It was great. it's fun to see she and her dad in uniform together,because he's still active. and but they have that, and I would be interested to actually see for the kids. I'd love to see a study where they, the other 50% that don't go into military service, how many of them go into some form of service teachers, any kind of educator or nurses or, social workers.

Because I think that to your point, it's instilled, it's in the culture. Service is part of who we are, as a community and, and so I think a lot of military connected kids end up still looking for those spaces where they can, be of.

in an anecdotal study of one that we're doing here, my daughter is, a first grade teacher that's very specifically what she did, medically there's been some medical reasons hearing very specifically why she hadn't been able to join. but you've mentioned how one of the reasons for starting kids rank over 10 years ago was to help your own children adjust to the nomadic military lifestyle, but more specifically to help empower military children and tap into the resilience some of that, that, that transitional resilience that we've been talking about, that many of them develop as being part of the military.

[00:06:13] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Absolutely. I think that for a while, like resilience was a real, like a buzzword around military connected kids. and I do agree that many of them are, naturally, inherently have that kind of,internal, strength, but many of them really need, some additional support to support them in becoming resilient.

I some have an easier time depending on personality type. and being able to bounce back from. Kind of challenging situations. you figure you, you're starting a new school.

you're moving away from people that you know, in a support system that you're used to, and some kids, because it becomes, second nature. They do it, without missing a beat. and other kids,understandably we'll need a little more support in that to help them adjust in becoming more resilient.

[00:07:00] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: And I think thatthat's where community plays a big role.

[00:07:03] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: Absolutely. I agree. II, we think of resilience and again, like you say, it's a buzzword, but resilience really does come from adversity, right? You don't get resilient by not being tested, not being tried. and there are some. Different adverse conditions for military children, things like being removed from a family of origin.

my children's grandparents. One set is in Tennessee and one set is in Missouri. And they don't have a connection to their grandparents like I maybe had when I was growing up. Were gonna go over to grandma and grandpa's house. So that's one example of being separated from a family of origin that's unique for military.

it's really interesting. I mean, you know, military families tend to then pick up families along the way. you have to meet people that you know you can learn to trust and,I always laughed because you. My kids did sleepovers really early because we had to make friends with the people in our neighborhood cuz if I had to go do something, we needed to know people that they can, be around.

but I think for military kids, like just this idea of, cuz people like, oh, my parents a business person and we traveled a lot. That's great, but then you have police officer kids or, first responder kids, who may be going into dangerous situations. you have a lot of jobs that may present, these challenges.

[00:08:13] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: But what happens in military is that it's all concurrent and very condensed. So that's what really makes it so unique is that they're having all of these experiences in a very. Period of time and then having to then readjust. They don't have necessarily either the stability of home, but then their parent is in an arduous situation.

They don't have, this, like they're a business person going to work and coming home every night, but, they are traveling a lot. I think for military kids, it just is this layering of, of, some of the challenges that make it really.

[00:08:48] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: I think some of the aspects of it. It is very interesting you put it that way in that. many other families have different aspects of this, but all of the aspects for military children, many of them are condensed. and one thing that I've seen again with my own children and we've often heard, is that military children are very adaptable because they have to be, you as a parent had to be adaptable.

but. my daughter, like my wife doesn't know a stranger. She can go into a room,and she can automatically connect and things like that because military children find themselves often being the new person in a room, and that becomes comfortable for them.

[00:09:21] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Yeah, and you think about like, when my kids were little, it was, did you, when they were in kindergarten, second grade, they went to three. In the same year because we'd moved back from overseas unexpectedly. We were supposed to leave in June, we left in February. And so the first school that we moved back stateside wasn't a great fit, and so they went to a third.

It just was a lot. And I would say, you know, did you make. You know, do you have friends? And they're like, yeah, we have lots of friends. And I'm like, okay, what are their names? we don't know. They're just our friends, . And it was kindthe spirit of oh yeah, we're gonna beat people and they're gonna be our friends.

But that does come become increasingly more difficult as you approach adolescents. So like you think it'd be hard. you have to carry a lot of stuff when they're little like physically stuff. But when they get older, and make, are starting to make real friendships that are meaningful to them.

the idea of, it's awkward to be an adolescent to begin with , and then you throw on top of their, to being new again and, trying to figure out who you. You know when your surroundings your community continuously changes,

[00:10:24] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: Yeah. No, I, I think, and again, that's an excellent point, of, as we go through these different stages of development, yes. As my kids and thankfully, we got to a place later in my career where they were at least able to say I was sitting all over the world, but at least they were able to stay and we were able to like, build and set down roots, through middle and high school.

but again, they were going to school with kids that have been together since kindergarten, right? there was long standing, relationships being built and now they're coming in as an adolescent, as you're saying, in an awkward period of time. And everybody knows each other. And now I'm the new.

[00:10:58] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Yeah. and I think that,part of the work and what we do, in what we do with Kids Rank is really thinking about military children holistically and that All might have very different experiences being a military child. to your point, me as well, my kids, once we got to middle school or end of elementary school, we stayed put because, my ex-husband and I made the decision for sure once they got to high school that we wouldn't move them.

and so then, Again, this is another difficult decision that families have to make. You know that then you might go geo bachelor or geographic bachelor, so that the service member is traveling, but the family is staying put to provide some of that stability for the children. And so I think that military kids, there's this idea of what a military child or child's experience is, but again, within the culture, there could, in the community, there can be so many different variations.

so if your parent, is a veteran and dealing with post traumatic stress and, but military culture is still very much part of, who you know with the makeup of dynamic of your family. You're still a military child for us, and we understand that, you know, military culture still plays a really big role in what goes on in your household.

[00:12:06] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: And so I think that there's so many different stories around military connected kids and what they're upbringing and how they, they can be, we have a lot of families when we lived in Japan, the one parent was Japanese and the other parent was, maybe from a rural place in the States.

And you have families that are dual military, you have families. there's just so many different, cuz you know, military, there's a microcosm of the bigger society. And within that there's so many,they're these different pockets of community within the bigger umbrella of military.

[00:12:37] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: And I think that's where, from what I've understand and what I've looked at Kids Rank is that's really, taking all of that experience and all of that understanding, but you're providing services that, that are obviously necessary. it's growing more and more. we've talked about some of the benefits of being a military child, but there.

of needs as well, many of which kids rank supports. What can you share about some of the programs, that you provide through kids?

[00:13:01] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Sure. one of our,cornerstone where we, where it all began, where our kids rank prides. And so you think of a pride of lions or pride in our military community. and really that is, a group of 10 to 12 kids that meet on a weekly basis that,it's this peer to peer format.

Other kids understanding the community and what you might be going through. and so we give them the opportunity to connect because that sense of belonging's really important. and then they work on leadership,activities to, strengthen them through skill-based learning.

And then, we do our service to our. So, we really want the, to instill the idea of, their parents serve the country and we want them to serve their communities and be reflective of that. And we're the program, our curriculum that we developed is based in social and emotional learning.

we really want them to feel like they have a space where they can come and authentically be themselves thinking about. All of the moves, all of the things that they have, really a lot of times really wonderful experiences that they've had and bring them and not be in a space where they feel like they have to be judged or they can't be authentically themselves, or they can't figure it out, right?

[00:14:09] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: So we're creating these spaces where they can trust each other within a format that has a structure that they,that they're familiar with. they have their own creed. They do PT at at every meeting. they say the Pledge of Allegiance and then they earn our curriculum modules, are based in,character traits.

So each module represents, so this year the kids are working on their ribbons. So they get pinned with their ribbon, build their racks of ribbons, which again mirrors their parents. And so this year, like the kids are working on ribbon of unity. Adapt and knowledge. and so then they'll learn, these, Different, lessons around, these character traits.

and so that's really for kindergarten through fifth grade. And last year we piloted our social skills and service, which, we're really getting into this year, which is our, for our adolescents. sixth. Through 10th graders. and that, takes a little deeper, we do, service projects that, they can really dig into and work on.

and that, that connection is really important at that age. just trying to help them navigate adolescence and and really have people that they can rely on and trust in. and so the sort and then skills. learning like what I said before, but really our entrepreneurial program is housed under our social skills and service.

[00:15:22] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: We have a media department. we have a fantastic leader who, is a photojournalist and so he's teaching them about photography and you know how to tell their story. and then we do Red Cross babysitter. Training and CPR because these are skills that they're able to use as they become young adults, which is really, we want them to be through our program, compassionate leaders that are well adjusted and able to give back and serve the communities wherever it is that they end up, putting down roots or if they decide to join the military, that they have these, foundational, skills and.

values that allow them to be, really a contribution to their communities.

[00:15:59] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: I really like that idea. I mean, one, there's the idea of a place to belong. There's a place where others are there with you. I'm thinking even back to, as I was retiring from the Army and I was going through my master's program, like all of the veterans found each other, like we all, started and you tend to do that.

in some familiarity sake, but also for comfort's sake, to be able, and I think that's really good to be able to give military children a place to belong. but then we think about the old VFWs and the American legions back in the day. A place to belong wasn't enough. You actually need.

[00:16:27] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: To do something. There's action-oriented, events or as you're talking about skill development, that sounds like it's a really unique twist to what you're doing. You're not just giving them a place to hang out. You're actually supporting them moving into the future.

[00:16:40] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Absolutely. to your point, there was a military lifestyle survey that was given last year, to, families across the country. And, part of the findings is that only 30% of our military, connected families felt like they belonged in their civilian communities. So, about 70% of military families live in civilian communities.

They don't live on base anymore, like you traditionally think of, and 80% of the kids go to civilian schools. And so if you think about that, only 30% are feeling. like they belong, there, there's a gap there. and it's exciting. We just, wrapped our, we just were waiting for our final report, for our evaluation, our first evaluation last year.

And 80% of the kids in our program feel like they belong in their community. we are working to give them that place, connect them with resources within the community so that it's not that they're just moving there. And, we'll be gone tomorrow. And it, I think one of the most heartbreaking, we had a young man, probably four year, four or five years ago, he was, they were PCSing to Japan and I was like, oh, you're gonna love it there.

He loved to draw anime and, and they were, weren't leaving at the end of the school year. They had to leave a little earlier. And I said, oh, you know, well your friends miss you when you go. And he said, nobody's gonna even know I'm. And that was the most heartbreaking thing to me, to think that he felt like he was here in his school, with his peers and that nobody would even recognize that, he had moved that he didn't feel like he, made an impact or, was seen. And for me, this idea of.

Of belonging. really is a big concept because it gives you that stability. I feel like it gives you stability, it gives you confidence, it gives you, really a way forward, in my opinion. I really appreciate that. I feel like the work that we're doing, Kind of starts to bridge that gap, that civilian military gap, which is really big.

traditionally. cuz as you said, when you,you found your veteran people and there is that, it feels really good to be around people that understand and you don't have to explain, I was laughed because I'm like, my kids, when we moved back from Japan, when we would go to the movie, they would almost every time wanna stand up before the movie started because they play the Pledge of Allegiance

[00:18:50] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: overseas. Yeah, they absolutely do. Yeah.

[00:18:53] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: And I would have to say, oh, no. we're back stateside. We're at a civilian theater. They're not gonna play the Pledge of Allegiance before the movie starts. but it's these, these little things that they can laugh about and identify. With their peers and then, but then also share with their civilian friends because, that's part of their story, part of their journey.

[00:19:09] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: No. Absolutely, and I think it's wonderful the work that you're doing. If folks wanna find out more about kids' Rank, maybe get involved in supporting the work that you do, how can they do that?

[00:19:18] squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: so obviously our website, kids rank.org. but we also, so the program that I described,our prides is our local, we're only in Illinois now, but we're working to be a national organization. So we are in that phase right now of how to do that. but we have a program called Masks of Hope.

Which is a non-clinical art therapy program. And, if you think of paper mache masks, it held a different meeting. Holds a different meeting now, with covid masks. But these are paper mache masks that, that military children are able to, through the curriculum, we've developed curriculum that allows them to express their feelings around being military kids.

So this is a program that we're taking nationally and doing in communities around the country. We'll be going to new. at the beginning of next year as well as Texas, we'd love to come to dc. and so the idea is that we are providing a space where military kids can share their feelings, their experiences reflect.

it's similar to way military veterans, have done this type of project before, but we're doing it all with the kids. we had some of the maths from our first cohort. They were selected and showcased in the east wing of the White House during month of the military child last year. and so it really is such a special way and we really can do it within civilian communities too, within schools.

and really, bridge, again, bridge that civilian military, divide by doing, this art space program.

[00:20:37] duane--_18_11-03-2022_065055: Absolutely. again, excellent, excellent work and I'll make sure that all of those links are in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[00:20:44]squadcaster-4egh_1_11-03-2022_075055: Thank you so much for having me.

Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom training options for organizations.

 I'm glad that I was able to have this great conversation with Kelcey. As you heard, even though our military service background was different. There were a lot of similarities and mutual understanding. One of the things that I reflected on after our conversation is one of those captain obvious moments, which is going to come as a surprise to absolutely. No one newsflash being part of a military family is hard. I mean, really hard. Whether it's a service member, spouse, child, even the extended family of service members, siblings, and parents. This isn't meant to be a comparison to other occupations or a better than situation. Just a recognition of the facts that the sacrifices required by the military affiliated community are significant. And for children it's different than for adults. They don't have the autonomy to choose whether or not to be affiliated with the military. 

My wife made a conscious choice, thankfully for me to leave Tennessee and join me on a journey around the world, our children didn't and like many things in life that difficulty comes with benefits. It's hard things often do, but not everyone who goes through hardship always realize the benefits that could come from that hardship. Like all parents, hopefully military affiliated parents simply try to do the best they can with the resources available. In Kelsey's case that was not just to support her own children, but as many military affiliated children as possible with kids wreck, which I'm certain, isn't easy either. But as I mentioned, doing hard things, usually results in benefits. The other thing that I'd like to point out is how much I appreciate the consideration that has gone into program development for kids rank. 

As a clinical mental health professional, I recognize the value in psychological theory. That's grounded in observation and evidence. While at the same time, recognize that through reason concepts are only as valuable as the practical application. Psychology and theories of child development in this particular case. 

Don't just belong to psychologists and mental health professionals. They belong to all of us. As you heard, Kelsey shared how different programs at kids rank are developmentally appropriate For the stages of growth and the needs of the kids in the program. 

I am a firm believer in the fact that programs that support mental health and wellness of anyone. Do not need to be delivered by mental health professionals, but these programs do need to be clinically informed and developed in conjunction with mental health professionals. Both of those elements should be present. there are simply not enough trained and licensed mental health professionals to meet the needs of any community, But programs that do not have a sound basis and delivery that is informed by trained and knowledgeable mental health professionals can be ineffective and at worse. 

Actually harmful to the people that are trying to support. Kelcey and Kids Rank are a great example of how practical application of sound principles of psychology can lead to success. So hopefully you appreciated my conversation. With Kelsey, if you did drop a review in your podcast, player of choice or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We always appreciate hearing from listeners, both feedback on the show and suggestions for future guests. 

For this week, PsychArmor Resource of the Week, I'd like to share the PsychArmor course Veteran 201 Military Families. The life of the military family can be chaotic and stressful. This course provides some insight into the unique challenges faced by military families. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.