Episode 96 Transcription

Welcome to episode 96 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts.

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission, our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

On today's episode. I'm having a conversation with military spouse, Mary Redding, co-founder and founding president of the military spouse, JD network and advocacy organization that works towards licensing accommodations for military spouses in the legal profession, including bar membership without additional examination, as well as network opportunities with other military spouses, with the Juris doctorate degree. Mary is a government affairs executive with diverse private sector non-profit and public sector experience. She has mentored rising stars in business, in the military community and in government through the creation of the CXO fellows program and home front rising in 2018, Mary was selected as a presidential leadership scholar, building a bipartisan community to solve our nation's most important problems. You can find out more about Mary. By checking out her bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points. 

[00:00:00] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: So Mary, the work of both the military spouse, JD Network in general, and the efforts of home front rising in particular, are so significant. But before we talk about them, I'd like to hear more about you and why this work is such a passion for you.

[00:00:12] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast today. I'm really honored to talk about Ms. Jdn Home Front Rising and all of our programs that we run for military spouse attorneys and for the military community. I definitely have a passion for both the law and for the military spouse community. I started as a corporate lawyer in California.

And I was practicing law and really having a great time representing my clients and enjoying the pursuit of justice. And then I met and fell in love with a guy in the Air Force. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd go from being a corporate lawyer, attending to large issues, representing, board of directors and employees to being.

MmSo we found ourselves moving frequently. He was active duty Air Force at the time, to keep the very long story short, went from active duty to the Air National Guard and we moved 11 times in the 14 years he was serving. So as you can imagine, having a license passing the California bar was no small task.

California was one of those states that has no reciprocity with any other state, and that means you cannot wave in. California is, unique in that regard. A lot of states have an interstate compact and they're able to wave into other states. So I found myself in Dayton, Ohio. With a bar license from a state that was not able to be used and wad in, in the state of Ohio. And I had a lot of corporate experience that, no one in Ohio was really interested in California law, international law, working for a large corporation in the UK when we lived there. And so I went to the Women's Bar Association in Dayton, Ohio after I was rejected from many, many. and I said, This is an issue.

Looking at my spouse's career from that point forward before he was in the International Guard was really concerning. I had student loans to pay and he was a captain at the time and his wage did not cover, my student loans. You know, there are $1,500. So what I did is I went to people who would be interested.

The women's bar in the state of Ohio was supportive. And I'll never forget, I gave a presentation in Dayton at one of their annual meetings and they said, Mary, how many people does this impact? And at that time, I hadn't ever met another military spouse, attorney, And so I said very clearly.

Me , this impacts me. I said, I'm sure there's others out there, but I just haven't been able to find them. We put a petition into the Ohio Supreme Court, and of course you could probably imagine what happened next. We got orders to Tucson, Arizona, and at that time there were other spouses in the country that were writing op-eds and writing to the American Bar Associa.

Facing the exact same issue, and as soon as one of those spouses reached out, you better believe I stayed up all night making a terrible website, and putting military spouse, JD Network out there to see how many spouses this impacted and how we could find a solution.

[00:03:32] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: You know, and I think that if people think about outside the military and veterans space, you are already a successful professional, working in your industry and then you meet someone you love and you don't necessarily think that I have to choose between. The person I decide to marry and my career, but that's something unique to military spouses.

[00:03:54] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: That's right, and we really wanted to reframe the conversation to, point out exactly what you said, which is we were already established professionals. And we already had student loans that were impacting, where and how we live and work. And also the licensing factor on top of it was just really the thing that pushed us over the edge.

So it was a wonderful moment to reframe, who military spouses are, our educational backgrounds and our desire to also have a career.

You know, I think that's very critical. Before we started recording, as I'd mentioned, I'm a licensed professional myself, and I understand the challenges come working in a field that requires the state by state licensure, but also being part of a highly mobile workforce that doesn't always stay in one place in the military.

which is why I understand, as you'd mentioned, why military spouse, JD. Foundation was started is to support military spouses in the legal profession to be able to do what they went to school for.

[00:04:51] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:52] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: right. Our focus at the very beginning and our mission was to change the rules and remove the barriers for military spouses to practice law in the states. Where they were stationed due to their spouse's military orders. we have been very successful in that mission. I am very proud to say that we have over 40 states now due to military spouse attorney advocacy has now allowed us to practice when we are in the state on our spouse's military.

So even though we're down to the last handful of states, we continue to advocate for rule changes, especially the ones that have, passed. But they have just, supervision requirements, that really prevent the practice of law. we do look at some states like Louisiana that has a supervision requirement.

but it also the most flexible one to date. and it will not prevent the accommodation from actually being effecti. So we are still focused on the state licensing until it is, really, some of these supervision requirements are addressed. But we wanted to make sure that what we were doing was allowing military spouses to practice law, and we were also committed to giving back to our c.

[00:06:07] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: Recognizing that we had a specific skill set, we're lawyers. Wow. at one point we've had over, 800, registered members of our Bar Association, 800 attorneys across this country that care deeply for our military families, the military community, and our veterans. So we have had a number of programs over the years, that.

Contributed to our military community. We have had a gold star representation where we would, manage cases for Gold Star family members. we have a military spouse representing Veteran Fellowship Right now it's a joint initiative between vet lag and Ms. Jdn, where vet lag hires military spouses, attorneys who are stationed over. So the fellowship is on its second set of fellows, and it's just a really great way for us to contribute to the community representing veterans and providing, military spouses with employment.

[00:07:07] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: And I think that can be very beneficial, especially if you're someone that has to engage in the legal profession. if I am a citizen and I need a lawyer,that's a high trust thing. and for me to be able to have a lawyer that has some understanding of my culture, military culture, military experience, from the aspect of military spouse.

that helps me trust that lawyer more, trust that individual knows what I need and things like that. but then again, it's, it, those are some of the barriers is that there's somebody that I'd like to work with. but if there's not the reciprocity and licensure between the states,I'm not getting my best representation and the person wants to represent me isn't able.

[00:07:45] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: That's right actually, the program that represented gold star spouses started at my kitchen table. And one of our friends who had lost their spouse, was very concerned about an issue regarding a mortgage in the transfer of a mortgage into their name. And what we found was that cultural competency was worth.

Everything to that gold star spouse. They didn't have to explain what the military life was like. They didn't have to explain to me what, the impact of losing their spouse on their family. And we were able to see the ability and see the effects of that cultural competency on the spouse, reducing some of the stress.

they didn't have to explain to a large law firm the importance of just transferring a. so it's really been an honor to be able to contribute back to the community in.

[00:08:37] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: And I think,that's very critical. and again, if we didn't have the ability to be, transitory, so to speak, or to be able to transfer those licenses, then that, that option wouldn't be available. Now, an additional part of the work that Mss Jdn does is to support military spouses and advocacy and civic engagement through Home Front Rising.

it's a program that. JD and supports, why do you think it was important to get involved in supporting military spouses to share their voices in the political arena?

[00:09:04] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: It's a really great program and, and something that I'm very proud of. it's actually started, back during the government shutdown and I was with, Lauren Weiner and Donna Honeycut. To, people who are military spouses and, people who are very committed to the military community. And we were sitting in Washington, DC watching the tv and at that point, they hadn't passed a budget.

And so we were facing that very long government shutdown. and at the time it was a really high ops tempo and a lot of our spouses were gone. and even at the time of the government shutdown until they passed, the budgets for the military pay, you know, there was a moment of conversation of, are our spouses gonna get paid?

And what I realized pretty quickly, and with the support and knowledge of Washington, DC and our state, political systems from Lauren and Donna was that we needed a voice at the table and often the voice at the table would be working groups or other ways to bring together the community.

But I was sitting at a, in a government position and others were sitting in very important government positions as military spouses and senior executive position. And making sure that those people were, able to voice their opinion of the community. and also to have a seat at the table when both the Hill as well as other areas of government were making decisions about our community.

So we started Home Front Rising. It was a collaboration between Ms. Jn and In Gear Career, which was a nonprofit focused on military spouse employment. Started by Lauren and Donna, and that year we had so many elected officials. We had a massive training. People were really. Passionate about providing a voice to the military spouse, community, and the military community.

we have, hosted trainings across the country for military spouses, It is very important to focus on the political side. we wanted to see military spouses in elected offices. we have wonderful examples of that now with the Secretary of State in Michigan. Jocelyn Benson, you know, she was well established in her political career and really an inspiration to show how important it is to have a military spouse voice.

[00:11:26] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: When legislation's being passed, there's a current law in Michigan, that is on the Governor's desk right now, and it is for voting rights and the ability to return an electronic ballot from overseas, but it only allows military members to return the ballot, not military spouse. So we're so lucky to have someone like Jocelyn Benson who understands if you're serving Oconus with your spouse, how important it is to vote.

And so why not allow both military spouses and their, qualified and eligible dependents to vote in the same way? So that's just one example of how important it is to have the military spouse, perspective to represent the military. Community, at least the military families. And of course, who's a member of the military family is the currently serving service member.

So we have a great example of Don Gele who's running for Maryland State Senate right now, military spouse. And she's bringing that perspective to represent not just, the veteran community, of course, her spouse is now a veteran, and the military spouse community. How can they better support. So we've also encouraged military spouses in the federal government to really take a position of, representing the community.

So that's through the direct higher authority for military spouses, and then a new initiative from joining forces to, bring together and build a community within the federal government. So to, to answer your question, it's been a real honor. we've really seen. Movement. all that training has worked out to, provide, a platform for, military spouses to take a seat at the table and represent the community when faced with issues that impact the community.

[00:13:11] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: You. I think that is critically important. a colleague always says that decisions are made by those who show up. and not just necessarily that, but decisions are made by those that are allowed to be at the table or find themselves a place in these conversations. and a lot of times military spouses may think that, the restrictions that may be on my active duty service member when it comes to civic engagement apply to me as well.

and that's not the case.

[00:13:35] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: That's right. you're absolutely correct. The same restrictions. do not apply to military spouses. We are citizens and we are allowed to speak out on issues, of importance to us. Of course, the service members do have some restrictions. And those of us who've served in the government, I was a senior executive, we do have, restrictions as well on our political activity.

I'll say restrictions and guidelines. And military spouses who, are able to and don't fall into those categories, are able to speak out for our community. You're absolutely.

[00:14:07] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: Now, I think that's, again, absolutely, especially, in, in, and we say in the climate, today's climate, but at any time, advocacy, legislative advocacy, is the way to impact long term change. So if people wanted to find out more about Ms. Jdn or Home Front Rising, how can they.

[00:14:24] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: , You can find Ms. Jdn on the website, ms jdn.org or through any of our social media channel. the organization is a bar association, so it is run by, a board of directors that changes every year to provide leadership development for military spouse attorneys. So we're grateful for our current president, Lindsay Luhan and our president elect Claire Gibson for continuing the mission and continuing to support military spouses in the legal profess.

[00:14:53] duane--_14_10-07-2022_063651: That's great, and I will absolutely make sure that links to that, as well as the social media channels are on the, show notes. thank you so much for for coming on the show. 

[00:15:01] mary-reding--she-her-_1_10-07-2022_083652: thanks so much. Great to meet 

you

Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom training options for organizations.

I really appreciated my conversation with Mary. It brings up another aspect of military life The mini may not be familiar with, but makes sense. When you hear it. Anyone who's been affiliated with the military understands that there is a nature of sacrifice involved. 

Especially for those who we're serving, but also for the family members as well. We've shared the family sacrifices before. And they're well-known separation from family of origin. Frequent moves, Patchwork educational opportunities for children reduced or non-existent employment opportunities for spouses. 

But it may be that there are some sacrifices that are just too much to expect people to bear. I brought it up in my conversation with Mary, but hers is an example of a military lifestyle that essentially forced her to choose between two things that she loved her romantic partner and the work that she did. 

When Mary and her spouse met, she had a fulfilling career as a corporate lawyer . For another example in my wife and I met, . She had begun a promising career in law enforcement. When we married and she joined me first when I was serving in the 82nd airborne division. And then less than a year later, when we got orders, Germany my wife left that career behind. She chose me for better or worse. 

Instead of continuing to pursue her career. Mary was not in a position to do that, nor did she want to. And she shouldn't have had to, this is something that not a lot of people are aware of that licensure for many professionals, medical professionals, legal professionals, a range of other occupations are managed from state to state and are not always the same. 

This isn't that big of a deal. If someone stays in a single location with no intention of leaving. That's a luxury that's not possible to military families. It's not a possibility of, if there will be a move it's when an important life impacting decisions are dependent upon those moves. 

So once again, we're having a discussion about how much sacrifice and strain on the family should be born because the military service, and there are solutions out there to reduce that strain and support someone who chooses to become part of a military family. The other point that I'd like to highlight is something that Mary mentioned. And I touched on in our conversation. 

The benefit of working with someone who is culturally familiar with and responsive to the needs of military families. You don't get a lawyer when things are going right. Just like you don't go looking for a therapist when things are great in your life. You go to them when you have a need that you can't figure out on your own, that can be a frightening and vulnerable time, and you need to find someone you can trust and you trust someone who understands your situation is familiar with your background and someone, you don't have to explain all the acronyms to. 

And I'm sure there's a joke somewhere in there about lawyers and trust, but joking goes out the window. When you have a need to manage a complicated, legal concern. And they come at difficult times. I recall the challenges I had when I was the executor of my father's estate and we were trying to do all of the things necessary to the court system. 

I was relieved to know that I had someone who I could reach out to for advice to talk me through the paperwork and the things that I needed to do, whose husband was a career service member 

so she knew what I needed to do, not just with the legal system, but with the VA paperwork that would be needed as well. And just like any other level of cultural responsivity training, you don't have to have lived experience as a service member or a military spouse like Mary and her colleagues do. 

Just like finding a combat veteran. Who's a therapist. There are simply not enough military spouses in the legal profession who can meet the needs of the people they're serving. When possible reason being how difficult it is to hold licensure in a single jurisdiction when you're moving frequently to our earlier point. 

 You don't have to have been a military spouse or service member to have cultural responsivity to members of the military population. 

You just have to take the time to listen, to learn, to take courses where else on psych armor. and you can get to the same destination demonstrate your care and concern for those who served. So, hopefully you appreciated my conversation with Mary. If you did drop a review in your podcast player of choice, or send us an email info@psycharmor.org. We always appreciate hearing from listeners, both feedback on the show and suggestions for future guests. 

But this week, psychomotor resource of the week, I'd like to share the psychomotor course legal issues of documents. Caregivers need. This course provides ideas for the kind of legal issues. A caregiver will want to be aware of what conversations to have with your service member or veteran and what documents caregivers might need to have handy for longterm care. You can find the link to the resource in our show notes. 

So thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. Make sure to take a look at the show notes, Which you can find in your podcast app as well as on psycharmor.org forward slash podcast. While you're there. You can find hundreds of online training videos delivered by nationally recognized subject matter experts who are committed to educating the civilian community about military culture. All of these courses are free to individual learners. You wouldn't be listening if you didn't care. 

And it's that curiosity and passion for supporting service members and their families that we want to encourage and increase. Come back each week for another conversation and make sure to engage with PsychArmor on social media to let us know what you thought about the show. I'd like to express special. Thanks to operation Encore And Navy Seahawk, pilot, gerrymander scout go for our theme song. Don't kill the messenger. This show was produced by Headspace and timing and all rights to the show remain reserved by PsychArmor much appreciation to the team at PsychArmor that makes the show happen. Carole Turner, Vice President of Strategic Communications who keeps me on track and outstanding guests coordinator. And support and transcripts by Emma Atherall. Feel free to share this show. In fact, we request that you do, but make sure to let folks know where you heard it. Join us next time for another great episode. And until then, Stay aware, get educated and be well.