Episode 91 Transcription

Welcome to Episode 91 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. 

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Jamie Chapman. One of the original co-founders and chief operating officer of the military spouse chamber of commerce. Her professional background is as a senior military talent program manager for Amazon web services. Jimmy served in the army reserves for six years and is currently an active duty army spouse with their families stationed in Texas. In addition to her work at the military spouse chamber, Jamie provides professional speaking and consulting services for organizations who are looking to hire, retain, and promote military spouse, and veteran 

Find out more about Jamie by checking out her bio on our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.

[00:00:00] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: . so Jamie, as a former service member and a military spouse, your passion for supporting those who served in those who care for them is absolutely understandable.

Before we get into the work of the military spouse chamber of commerce. It'd be great to hear about your background and why you're so passionate about what you're doing.

Well, I was a service member myself. I served in the army reserves for six years and I had a successful career, prior to becoming a military spouse. And so it was quite a slap in the face to get married to my soldier and then stop being a veteran in the eyes of other people and start being, just a military spouse.

[00:00:33] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: And so I had went from, you know, having a career that was going 90 to nothing, and then it was going nothing to 90, And so in Colorado Springs was where my husband and I got married in 2016. Then I was just. On the classic military spouse on an underemployment track. I had a job where I had been promoted three times, but laid off twice.

I was unemployed for a period of time. And I actually kept dogs in my house, like as a, like a doggy daycare. And then I ended up turning to entrepreneurship, which led me down the path where I ended up opening up the chamber. So it's been a, crazy ride, as a military spouse. And it's been the most challenging position title I have ever held in my life.

[00:01:13] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: you bring up a point. I think that is fairly frequent with veterans who are also military spouses, male or female. It's like, which, becomes sort of the primary identity and not necessarily by your choice, but how others see you either as the veteran themselves or as a military spouse sort of dictates where you find yourself, especially in the employment.

So I had a. Said a pretty clear cut path prior to marrying my husband and moving with him and that kind of thing. also, when I served this, isn't like a fun fact. I share all the time, but I was in E four in the army reserves. My husband is an officer in a part of me was having a little bit of like rank shame.

whenever was you. Messing around with my husband's, like we would go to parties and there would be people there. And all of the other spouses, they used to be like captains in the military. And here I was like, we're a little bit, off, but my husband says it so well. He says I did marry up. My wife is an amazing person.

[00:02:11] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: We, we were never fraternizing or anything like that when we were in the military at the same time, but it just ended up, I felt a little bit of shame about how we were so different in terms of like our. I'm totally over that now, but, that was something I just had a hiccup around at that time. And then now,looking back, I was very quiet.

I, I had worked at an employer for over a year before any of my colleagues at one point in time had found out I was even a veteran. so there was just, I was having some issues around my identity very much so at that time, and I wanted to be proud of being a veteran, but it just seemed like I had immediately.

stigmatized as a military spouse. And at that time it was a lot worse. I feel like than it is now. when spouses are unemployed and they're couch potatoes and they're depends and all of those horrible stigmas that we hear. And then now in this space, I believe there's so much more of a shift in.

[00:03:04] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: Who we are as military spouses, we're advocates, we're people that are out there using our voice to change the space for other military spouses. And so now I'm really proud of that, but at the, in the beginning of my marriage, it was a very tough transition.

and I think, again, there's that, that typical piece and there's the aspects of our military service, that carry over, like just that transition, leaving the military. and again, as you're talking about, just filling these different roles of going from a service member and going into different spaces where you really.

[00:03:36] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: Feel like you belong. And I know for a fact, When I transitioned finding myself in situations where in my mind, I'm like, I don't even belong here, but outwardly, like I was invited to be in these spaces, but I personally didn't feel like I belong there.

[00:03:49] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: Yeah. I feel the imposter syndrome every day now, professionally. I, the one thing I wanted the most when I was a new military spouse was a stable career. And now that I have that, every time I walk into a room with people, I admire who I've been following online and saying girling over. I really get that surreal sense of imposter syndrome, where I don't necessarily feel like I belong in the room with these people.

we both were members of the president Bush cohort, the veteran leadership program. and that was one of the most just eye opening experiences of my life to, get in there with this group of about 50 of my fellow scholars. And then to realize, I'm actually not the stupidest person in the room.

[00:04:29] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: This is phenomenal. Like, I feel like I belong here and it was maybe the first time I'd walked into a room full of these people that I think are the best of the best in the world and to feel like, wow, I actually did earn my keep. I do belong to be in here. So it's been a journey. But I can say just maturing, over the past few years and kind of getting over myself was part of that battle.

[00:04:49] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: A, and I can imagine that's really, a lot of the reason why the military spouse chamber of commerce came about chambers of commerce have been around for a long time supporting business owners. You share a common interest, but why do you think it was important to develop a chamber of commerce specifically?

Not just for veterans or military affiliate, but specifically for military spouse.

[00:05:09] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: You are asking such a good question. to start, I'll say there's actually a coalition that I'm a part of, and there's 35 or 40 veterans chambers of commerce around the country, over various states or various cities and. We are the only military spouse specific chamber of commerce.

And I will say this, the veterans chambers all with open arms will welcome a military spouse in, but the reason we actually created the military spouse chamber of commerce was to be the engine to run a certification program. And there was also just a need for. A home for the military spouse business owner.

So the certification let's talk about that, you can go out there and you can get certified as a minority owned or a veteran owned or service disabled veteran owned, or as a woman owned business with both the government and at places in the private sector, military spouses have never had that.

but those certifications, they serve a very specific purpose in business. So if you're going to the private sector, For example, one of the companies that recognizes our certified military spouses is Johnson and Johnson,Johnson, and Johnson doesn't want to do business with a small diverse vendor if they aren't vetted.

[00:06:21] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: And that removes liability from Johnson and Johnson to hiring and working with this small business. And so this important tool in the toolkit of helping military spouse own businesses, advance their, businesses and, you know, increase their book of business was. And you put a bunch of us knuckleheads together in a room and we come up with some good ideas.

And so I had been doing it, a military spouse, entrepreneur work group together with the chief of staff of the army spouse, Maria McConville. And that's when I got in the room together with Stephanie Brown and Beth Conlan, who ended up being the three of us. Like launching the military spouse chamber. But when Stephanie had brought up, we need to certify military spouse owned businesses and we should do it through a chamber.

My jaw hit the floor and then Beth said, isn't there already a chamber for military spouses and sure enough, there wasn't. So that's when the idea was born. We started creating the chamber in 2020, and then we launched publicly in January of 2021. And so today, We're about a year and a half old. We have over a thousand members and we have members spanning 35 states in five C.

I think that's amazing. I recall, having conversations again, as you mentioned, you were here in Colorado and I always have a conversation, with the president of the Southern Colorado women's chamber of commerce. and I asked her, when you have somebody sign up, do you ask if they're military.

[00:07:41] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: Whether or not they are veterans or military spouses. And she was like,no, actually we don't. and I said, well, that would be a good question to ask, because then there's so many different doors, not more doors, but different doors that can be opened. Obviously there's small business loans through the department of veterans affairs, viewer, veteran, things like that.

but to your. other niche groups don't consider the military affiliation as an aspect that could set their participants apart from the larger groups.

[00:08:10] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: Right. And that was part of, we think about employment protections. if you go for a job interview, they can't ask you if you're married and things like that. And so military spouses are not recognized as a protected class. Broadly, I think there are some certain cities and maybe even some states that might recognize military affiliated individuals as a protected class, but there is nobody recognizing the business side, you know?

And so in my mind, it's a bifurcated, way of being a professional. You can either hire veterans and military spouses for traditional jobs through your talent pipelines, or you can hire a military spouse or a veteran owned. Through your supplier diversity pipelines. And until the military spouse chamber invented and launched the certification program for military spouses, there was literally no avenue for military spouse own business to get that supplier diversity recognition.

The only way that most spouses could get through was. if they identified as a woman owned business, but as not every military spouse is a woman. and wouldn't qualify for that. Plus there's 11 million other certified women owned businesses and you get lost in a sea of them. So we recognize the disadvantage that military spouses face, and we wanted to give them just another leg up so that, they could pursue a professional career in business if that's what they wanted to.

and really what chambers are designed to, and what you've done is giving military spouses a place where they truly belong. like you said, if there is a local military or veteran chamber of commerce, well, the military spouse doesn't belong. If they're not specifically, like you would qualify as a veteran who is also a woman and a business owner.

[00:09:47] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: a military spouse business owner would not fit in the veteran chamber of commerce, so to speak or nor would they fit specifically just in a women's chamber of commerce. And so you give military spouse entrepreneurs, a place to.

[00:10:00] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: right. Well, and one other thing that's important to note here. Military spouses are a very transient population. And the classic chamber of commerce model is a hyper-local model, right? There are regional and national chambers out there, but you generally go to your new hometown. You go next door to the chamber of commerce and tourism building, and you sign up to be a member of this super local chamber of commerce.

That model just doesn't fit military spouses. And it's expensive because if you move every two years, you're paying at minimum three or $400 a year for a chamber membership, then you're moving and then you have to pay to a different chamber of membership due. And so we just got rid of all of that and we actually use sponsor.

The membership to the military spouse chamber is totally free to get certified. As a military spouse business is totally free and we have this national and virtual chamber for them. however, coming in 2023, we are gonna roll out local chapters in cities where there's a demand for it. And we're gonna have the ability for our national chamber members to actually get together and meet locally.

Stay tuned for more on that. We're piloting two right now. One of them is in the panhandle of Florida and in just about a month and a half, our chapter leads have drummed up 120 new members. It's fantastic. and then we have a chapter in the world's largest cul-de-sac Fort Irwin, California, where the national training center is.

[00:11:25] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: And there's just these isolated military spouses there that are running businesses and they're like, we need something here. Let's do a chamber chapter. So we're piloting these sort of two models with a large sprawling Metro area and then a small isolated base to see what happens. And then starting in 2023, we'll be rolling out chapters where there's a city.

That has demand. more for that, we're gonna try to localize our national chamber, as much as we can through the chapter model, to connect our military spouses on a local level and, create the built in networking that you expect from a chamber.

[00:11:57] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: Absolutely. But then also the idea of a chamber is meant to be, you go to a place and then you stay in that place and you deepen your network. Broaden your network and you solidify your network. whereas if you're the new person that comes in the first two years, but the, but really the chamber is there is to solidify, if you've been there 10 or 15 years.

and that's just not the case for military spouses. So again, this idea of how you're taking what works with the chambers, but adapting what doesn't work for the military spouse.

[00:12:25] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: right. And so that, like I said, that model, you grow with your chamber over time. If you're using a traditional chamber, You start your new business, your bright eyed and bushy tail. Do you sign up for the. You walk in the front door, you start networking. And then 10 years later, you're still in the chamber, but the roles have changed.

And now you're mentoring a new bride, eye and bushy tail business owner. That's walking in military spouses have historically not had a chance to leverage that model into mature inside of a chamber as their businesses are growing. we have created and facilitated the opportunity for them to do that over time.

And right now our businesses that we have signed up as members. They're gonna grow with us ourselves, the chamber, because we've just started and we're a year and a half old. So I'm excited to see the long term effects as an organization, as we mature.

[00:13:12] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: Yeah, no, I'm. I'm excited for you. And I'm already thinking of different, ways and avenues and just, it's really an exciting concept. you've talked, about the certification, and that's just. Of the number of things that military spouse chamber of commerce does, what can you tell us about some of your other programs?

[00:13:27] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: that's our flagship service offering and the thing that we push the most, but we have a lot of other benefits to just highlight a few that stand out. we recognize that. Military spouse business owners, when they become successful 98% of them, according to our survey data report that they would turn around and hire another military spouse, should their business need to hire employees?

That's a lot of people. And so what we've seen over and over again with successful military spouse own businesses through case studies is a business starts generating revenue. They need to start hiring employees and they start hiring other military spouses, making this beautiful circle of life complete.

And so we wanna facilitate these businesses being competitive employers that military spouses wanna work with. We're not an education or a curriculum provider, but we've actually created benefits packages so that these chamber members can come through and say, Hey, I need to hire employees.

[00:14:24] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: And I would like to offer them, insurance and retirement benefits like any other employer does. And because we have a thousand members, we get these things at a group discounted rate and our small business of two people. Can get access to retirement and insurance benefits and even higher education benefits for their employees.

So that from day one, they can offer benefits to their employees at low or no cost to the business. you know, we, aren't obviously putting money in people's retirement accounts, but, you know, we have. A plan should a business grow and wanna actually hire other military spouses, making them more competitive and hopefully increasing their chances to be able to hire that spouse.

So we offer benefits is one thing. in the future, we will be, like I said, rolling out chapters for these places. , we're gonna have our first in person, annual summit event with a big pitch competition. I don't have the dates yet. We haven't solidified it, but it should be in New York city coming in Q1 of 2023.

So we're trying to just get our people together, get them networking, and then provide financial opportunities to them as well. you know, in time we just launched the military spouse chamber foundation. And that will be a micro grant giving entity as we fundraise around it. So we've just got all of these things, working, all these irons in the fire, a hundred percent of it goes right back to that military spouse own business.

[00:15:41] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: so obviously there's the idea of the network that exists, there's been military spouses and, and we've even highlighted even on the show before the great work that military spouses have done in an area. but the network was just sort of there. What I'm hearing that may be a difference with the military spouse chamber of commerce is, you're providing an opportunity specifically for the business owners.

and you're putting some structure or, or creating some action for the network to engage in.

[00:16:10] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: Yeah, I guess you could say that We don't have the opportunity on that hyper local model to, get together and schmooze over lunch every week. We just, that's not gonna work for our membership. So we do try to create opportunities for them to digitally engage with each other. and then create brand credibility for their businesses through the certification, through offering benefits to their employees and things like that.

So we are the things on our, repertoire of services that we offer are all to build that business up and to make them a better business. And, the reason we think like that is because all of our founders are business owners. We were all entrepreneurs ourselves and we all led businesses, hired other military spouses.

And we wanted to think back in time to our businesses and try to make it a little bit easier on ourselves. So it was, just from firsthand experience, having been entrepreneurs, ourselves, supporting other military spouses that we idealized all the things that we offer.

[00:17:05] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: Yeah, providing military spouse, entrepreneurs, and business owners with what they don't know that they need. Because you didn't know what you needed when you were that bright eyed,

[00:17:14] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: right. That's

and so you're providing the, and even this idea of, I'm focused on developing my product.

[00:17:20] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: If I'm a military spouse, I'm focused on develop my product or my service. I'm not thinking about benefits. I'm not thinking about, insurance. I'm not thinking about these other things. And if, and I look around and I don't have anybody else who is like me to be able to help me do that. And that's really where I see a lot of the value, from the military spouse chamber of commerce, providing that.

So if people wanted to find out more about the military spouse chamber of commerce, how can they do that?

[00:17:43] jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: I would just go to our website. It's Mel spouse, chamber.org, M I L spouse chamber.org. and we have, like I said, you can sign up instantly and for free as a member. and then we've got. A whole resources library there of all of these benefits and resources that I was just talking about. And then you can also click to get certified there on our website as well.

Again, another free service offering. we're able to do all of that because we've been supported by sponsors who see the value of our mission and see the value of supporting military spouse own businesses. So I'm super excited to be able to invite people to join the chamber for free. We could do that on mill spouse, chamber dot.

[00:18:22] duane--_12_09-23-2022_065109-1: I will make sure , that, that link is absolutely in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[00:18:27]jaime-chapman--she-her-_1_09-23-2022_075110-1: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Once again, we would like to thank this week’s sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom trading options for organizations. 

The first point that came up for me in our conversation was the fact that military culture can lead to imposter syndrome in a number of different I think we've become a lot more open about imposter syndrome over the past couple of years. And especially as it relates to service members in their transition. 

Moving from one career to another, even one work environment to another certainly creates the feelings of inadequacy anxiety that many feel. And service members are often used to feeling sure of themselves and their skills, but that surety is not present in unfamiliar environments, which is a signal to many service members that something is wrong here. And if there's something wrong that it might be me. But Jamie described another layer of imposter syndrome. That's deeply rooted military culture. The idea of rancor position or other factors that existed in military. That should not apply outside of the military, but do. 

She mentioned that she was a specialist in the army reserves and he forward enlisted soldier, but found herself in the room with other military spouses who had been officers. It's not just the differences in military backgrounds That may do that, but in the military, we're trained to socialize and integrate with service members of similar ranks in the military. to not socialize with lieutenants and captains. It just isn't done. And so our brains think that since it wasn't done, then it shouldn't be done. Now something's not right here. I'm in the wrong place. 

Idle belong. Perhaps the same thing might happen to an air force veteran, a room full of Marines, real, a woman veteran the room full of male veterans. Military culture is a deeply ingrained part of that veterans identity. And it can take a lot to overcome that culture. It's not impossible, But it does take sticking things out during discomfort, which isn't always easy. 

the other thing that I'd like to point out is how great an idea. 

That the military spouse chamber of commerce is it's not just a place for military spouses to belong, which I realized is a point that I made during our conversation, But a business development and opportunity generating collaborative. It's not just a social club for those of us who are not business owners or entrepreneurs, it may be easy to consider. Chamber meetings is just another gathering where business people get together to have bagels and coffee and network. 

It can be that. Sure. But as Jamie identified during our conversation, it's also much more than that. It's a group of like-minded individuals with similar backgrounds gathering together to support and empower each other. It's a way for the group of them to come together and do things that they may not be able to do individually, such as obtain insurance and health benefits for their staff. Which as Jamie said helps in recruitment and retention, which helps the business grow. And the certification is huge. It removes another barrier that existed for military spouses, a barrier that doesn't exist for other designations. 

As she mentioned, a Veteran owned small business, a woman owned small business, a disability owned business enterprise are all certifications that allow those businesses to bid for certain jobs and be competitive in the marketplace. But again, as Jimmy pointed out, not all military spouses are veterans. 

They're not all women and they don't all qualify as having a disability. By simply not being in those categories, their businesses and efforts don't have the opportunity to be competitive in the same marketplace, which reduces diversity in contractors and suppliers can perpetuate military spouse, unemployment, and underemployment, and a whole host of other outcomes. So again, when Jamie and her colleagues brought the military spouse chamber of commerce together, it was not just to put together another social support group, but to bring actionable solutions to business owners that can very likely change lives. 

So I hope that you found my conversation with Jamie beneficial. If you enjoyed it, let us know. Drop a review in your podcast player, a choice, or send us an email info@psycharmor.org. We'd appreciate knowing that you're listening, what you think and what you'd like to hear about in future episodes. 

But this week PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor course, Supporting Veteran Owned Businesses Supplier Diversity. In this course, you learn strategies and best practices to implement Veteran supplier diversity in your business or organization. And as you take the course also consider how beneficial it might be for supplier diversity to include military spousal and small businesses. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.