Episode 78 Transcription

Welcome to Episode 78 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor trusted partners, and educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Shannon Razsadin, a  Navy spouse and executive director of the Military Family Advisory Network, an organization that serves as the voice of the modern military family and a bridge that connects military families to the resources, people and information they need. Shannon serves as one of three civilian advisors to the secretary of defense on the military family readiness council; it has been featured on a number of national media outlets as an expert on supporting the military family. You can find out more about Shannon by checking out her bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some key points. 

DUANE: So Shannon as spouse of a currently serving Naval officer, you definitely have the experience of being part of a military family, which I'm certain informs your work in the leadership of the Military Family Advisory Network. But before we talk about the organization, it'd be great for listeners to hear more about your background and why you're passionate about the work that you're doing. 

SHANNON: Absolutely. As a military spouse, this is personal for me. We're an actively serving family. We're up in NewPort, Rhode Island. We're going through this life. We're moving. We were conus for a while. We have two young kids. And all of this work that we are doing directly ties to who I am, but also the impact that we can all have collectively as a group of organizations that can drive and influence change for all military families.This is all very personal for me. I did some volunteer work as the young adult in the military space, shortly after 9/11 and swore I would never marry someone in the military. And at last, here I am. And this is the work that I'm doing. And so for me, it's really more of a vocation than it is a job.

I'm incredibly passionate about this work. And I share that with a lot of other people in this space. Everyone who is here is drawn to doing good things for people who really truly deserve it.

DUANE: And the need is there. And I think when I joined in the mid nineties and obviously met my wife and she also had no intention of living the military life. But we got married in 99 and the need of the military families even in the eighties and nineties, especially in 9/11, they changed and the early years of global terror. So there's always been a need for military families to have support. And those needs have changed over time.

SHANNON: Absolutely. And one of the things as an organization that we're really focused on is making sure that we understand the current ground of military families. And so we bring together a group of actively serving military spouses who are our constant ear to the ground on what's happening in life. There are diverse representations of the forest they're stationed across the country.  Covering ranks from junior enlisted to mid grade officer and all branches of service. And that group gives us a real clear understanding of what we need to be paying attention to. They also give us a real mechanism for peer to peer communication. So important in this space. So as we think about making sure that military families are connected to the resources that they need, they're not always going to be paying attention to organizations or the department of defense or the services.

They're more likely to pay attention to people who they know who are living among them, who are going through this life alongside them. And that has really been our secret sauce as an organization is figuring out how to connect with military families in a real and authentic way.

DUANE: It's interesting. I always said as a senior leader in the army, if you really wanna know what's going on, ask the private and ask the spouses. And I think, and in many ways, ask the children too, because as leaders in the military, obviously we have our mission and things like that,but we can get locked in the mindset of accomplishing the mission but if we really wanna know what's going on, you have to listen to the people that are living it every.

SHANNON: You do. And we do that a few different ways as an organization. But we really believe in hearing from people in their own words, as an organization does regular research, we take a qualitative approach to everything that we do. And so what does that mean? That means we ask a lot of open ended questions.

It's a lengthy and sometimes very cumbersome way of doing research, but it always sheds light on things that we wouldn't have never known to ask if we were only focused on quantitative. Yes, no. A B, C, D questions. And so our research team of PhD researchers, they read every single response that we get from a military family respondent twice. And then it's coded to really understand themes. And so we have earned the trust of military families because they know that we are hearing them. They know that we're going to do something with the information that they share with us, but also we've earned the trust of the department of defense and the services, congress, white house, because they know the rigor and the scientific method that we use across the board with all of our research effort. And that has allowed us to really stay ahead of the curve and set the agenda as far as what's going on in military family's lives. 

And so you saw that clearly in 2019 with the work that we did around privatized military housing. We were hearing from our advisory board that this was an issue. We fielded a survey, 17,000 responses later. We had a report that really became the cornerstone for privatized housing reform. Similarly, on the food and security side, we heard from an advisory board member that she was seeing a lot of military families go into the food bank that she was working at. So we added questions in our surveys and figured out that pre pandemic one in eight military families was experiencing food and security. Fast forward to during COVID, that number went up to one in five. And that information allows us not only to put a spotlight on the issue, but also figure out are there resources that are out there that are already designed to serve military families that we can connect military families to or is there a real gap in the support area?

And that was really where our Million Meals Challenge last year was born. We really saw a need to connect military families to local food banks and food pantries and lower the barrier to entry to getting that support in promoting that help seeking behavior. And so last year as part of that, we distributed 1.1 million meals to military families in the four core locations where we saw the highest need.

DUNAE: And I think really that speaks to the value of a network because the food insecurity or the housing, of course, given my background on some of my friends and colleagues, Fort Brag comes to mind so Fayetteville, North Carolina. It's not just limited to that base, but the individuals stationed there may think that it might be because they don't have the experience of clean Texas or Pensacola, Florida, but having a network you're able to reach communities like San Diego or Tacoma or Norfolk or Newport Rhode Island and say that these issues are similar across branches, across communities, across the country.

SHANNON: Yeah, it's taking both the national and local approach to things. So we're able to identify what are some common themes that we're seeing across the board, but we're also able to do a really important landscape analysis to figure out what's happening, what's available on a local level. So the support that you're gonna provide to a family in 29 Palms is going to be very different from the support that you provide to a family in Norfolk, just as you think about the resources that are available and how people are receiving and able to access that type of support. And so as an organization and through this network, we've really been able to have our finger on what's happening in people's lives, what's available.

And again, what the ground truth is. So that we can understand how to right size solutions based on an overarching challenge, but also the resources that are available because we never wanna reinvent the wheel. And we never wanna duplicate effort, ultimately that just confuses military families and families don't care who's providing the support as long as they get the support and the help that they need. And so if there's a resource that's already out there. Great, how can we make sure that military families are connected to that? How can we work to build that trust? And so that we can promote the help seeking behavior where it's needed.

DUANE: And I think that's really, from my perspective, the sense that I get that what MFAN is really doing are those two core aspects: first identifying the needs. And maybe communicating the needs to both decision makers and other military families, right. That this is the need. But not just identifying the problem, but also presenting solutions as far as connecting networks and resources.So the research and the network of resources are the two aspects of what MFAN is really about.

SHANNON: Yeah, and it's so connected. And that's part of the reason why we do not field our military family support programing survey every year. We feel it every other year because we don't wanna be in a situation where we're just spotlighting the issues. We wanna make sure that we are providing solutions that are designed with military families in mind, and with a key understanding of what the landscape of support looks like.

So coming up in a few weeks, we're hosting our solution summit, which comes right on the heels of our research release. And what that does is that brings together our current and former advisory board members. So people who are still living, breathing, eating, sleeping military life. Stakeholders from the department of defense, from MSOs and VSOs, from the private sector, as well as, researchers to really help us understand.

Okay, these are the issues that our data show as being the clear challenges and pain points for military families. How can we work together to design solutions that are actually going to be used? Because if these solutions aren't designed with the end customer, the military family in mind, then you might as well not create them. They're gonna sit on a shelf. We're really excited to make our data actionable immediately so that we're not again, just sitting on it and waiting, but we're actually taking the next step to build these collaborative solutions. And that is where some of our coalition work has been born.

We really believe in convening, we believe in outcomes oriented work, and, as part of that, we've realized that we can and shouldn't do any of this work by ourselves. And so based on the key areas where we've really been focused based on what the research has told us to focus on financial health, food insecurity and housing, we've built coalitions that meet quarterly and have off cycle meetings to really build the collaboration, open lines of communication, figure out ways that we can be speaking the same language and getting support to the families who need it in a cohesive way.

Because again, families don't care if it's one MSO or another, that's providing the support. They wanna be able to access it in a way that is, convenient and conducive with military life and the challenges and push and pull that involves.

DUANE: I think one of the critical aspects here is helping military families and service members themselves understand that they're not alone in this. Right, if someone is experiencing, for example, food insecurity, maybe in their military spouse or military family circle, they know others, so sort of in my friend group, this is happening or maybe in my community or my base.

But if you have an organization that comes in, oh, no, it's not just your base. This is widespread across military families. You're not alone in this. And there are these resources, to be able to support you.

SHANNON: Yeah, we have a saying that we joke about internally, but it's the data don't lie and that's something that is foundational for us. It sets our agenda as an organization, but it also helps with the building of the trust. I keep saying help seeking behavior. But when you see that, one in eight pre pandemic and then one in five during the pandemic families were food insecure. That's something that takes some of the pressure off people and says, okay, to your point, I'm not alone. There are others who are going through this. And as we're hosting these food distribution events, we have an event this weekend that we have 800 families signed up for. 800 families outside of joint-based Lewis McCord are going to line up Saturday morning to receive a lot of groceries that will help create a cushion for them for that period of time with their groceries, are available to them.

But just seeing that, and we're seeing that our lines are getting longer and shorter, and that isn't necessarily an indication that the need is more, but I think it's more so that people are feeling more comfortable seeking support. The pandemic in some ways was a great equalizer. in a lot of cases, it didn't, pick and choose who would affect and who it wouldn't. And talking about things like food and security and financial challenges, housing challenges, it became something that wasn't necessarily reflective of poor management or of money or, whatever the situation might be. And so I think that the silver lining is it has made it easier for people to seek out support.

And now I'm afraid that we might not seen the worst of all of this, you know. We're still in a pandemic era, we still now are dealing with inflation cost of gasoline being through the roof. And some of the COVID support mechanisms and safety nets are going away. And so organizations like us are really keen on making sure that we are understanding what this looks like in the current time so that we can be informative to people who are in decision making roles on what is happening in people's lives so that they don't have to wait, terribly long for solutions to be born. 

DUANE: Now, I think that's another critical aspect of, again, this process of identifying the problem, right? This is what we're experiencing, broadly, presenting a solution. But those 800 families outside of Louis McCord, I've got two young adults like that food's gonna be gone in a week, if not two weeks.

 So two weeks from now, those families are gonna continue needing support, but what that does, and that's a drumbeat that sort of brings people's attention. Why are there 800 families outside of one of the largest bases in the west? And that's again, where you can have these conversations, like at your solution summit side.Yeah, we can take care of this right now, but we need to figure out how to be able to make sure that this isn't an ongoing issue.

SHANNON: Yeah. And that's why we did this causal factor research. So over the course of the last two years, we interviewed over 300 food and military families around Fort Hood and then in the Norfolk area. With the goal of identifying and pinpointing the things that are happening in military families lives that bring them to the point of being food insecure. So when was that tipping point for people? When were they pushed over the edge where they actually got to the point of being food insecure? And so we were able to identify these core issues like military spouse unemployment, like, being okay, being okay. And then something happening in life, like a car repair needed, or, an unexpected move that pushes them over the edge.

Childcare.The issues around childcare was a huge, huge piece of that. And so we were able to identify what are these issues with the goal that we can get upstream here so that we don't get to the point of families having to choose between paying their rent or paying their mortgage and paying for food.

 Because what we're seeing is that when it comes down to a decision like that, people are either choosing to go without or feed the people in their family, who they prioritize in a lot of cases and that's most often the kids. We're seeing people, unfortunately, a lot of cases suffer in silence, with this and know that there are solutions that need to happen that are really foundational, ultimately comes down to, pay and benefits, to really get people to a point of, not having to decide who eats today or eats a certain meal

DUANE: And as we're talking about taking care of the families of our service members, right, you know, so this is an obligation. Everyone wants to be able to help service members, Veterans, and those who care for them. But this is really a national security issue, as well as a mental health issue and things like that.

But, if someone is in the military and they feel like they can't support their family, they're gonna get out of the military. Or someone may be looking at the military lifestyle considering joining, but saying, you know what? I see what's happening there. I'm gonna choose not to join the military.And so I think taking care of these things is addressing yes, the absolute primary issue. But this is also an issue alot of people don't consider that it's part of the security of our nation is at stake.

SHANNON: Yeah. And the future of the all volunteer force. We know that the future that all-volunteer force lie in military children. And if military kids aren't seeing their families in a situation where they can achieve a state of wellbeing, why would they be inclined to join the family business?

The other piece of this too is, mission readiness release to report. About a year ago, it's saying that one of the biggest risks to the future all volunteer force is obesity, and you might not tie obesity and food insecurity together, but when you're having a hard time making ends meet, you're gonna go for the food that has a longer shelf life.

And that's cheaper. Those foods are often not the most nutritional. So how does that, impact the fitness of families and the obesity challenge that we're seeing and, frankly, the ability for people to be eligible for military service as well. And so to your point, it's a really complex issue.

It involves national security. It involves the future of all volunteer force and, mental health. People's ability to thrive. And, these people are putting so much on the line. They're sacrificing so much and the ability to feed their family or worry about feeding their family is something that should not be on the table here.

DUANE: A friend and colleague, a fellow mental health professional, that I know he says, it's very hard to talk about your inner child if you don't know eating tonight and there's some of these very basic things, that we need to take care of. And then we address all of the other aspects of the difficult parts of military service.

Shannon, it's definitely a huge supporter of the work that MFAN is doing. If people wanted to find out more about what MFAN does and how they can get involved, how can they do that?

SHANNON: Yeah, the best way is to go to our website. So www.mfan.org.  And, we really encourage people to come out and volunteer at our food distribution events. We encourage people to follow us on social media. And, we're an organization that's really focused on elevating the work of all of those who do good in this space.

And so we hope that the military families out there will continue to tell us their stories and that, and will, promise that we'll listen and make sure that others do as well. Thank you for having me.

Once again, this show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find out more about what they're doing at www.psycharmor.org.  

One of the takeaways that I got out of my conversation with Shannon was how she mentioned the importance of peer to peer communication. We know that we trust those we're familiar with things that we're familiar with. Understand what we're going through without us having to explain it and just get us in a way that others may not. That's what peer to peer communication is, a group of people who are familiar with the unique situation of being a service member, or even more specifically service member or military spouse of a particular branch of the military, or even a particular unit. 

I was recently at an event where another attendee who happened to be a military spouse mentioned her spouse jumping out of airplanes, which led us to the very brief, but beneficial conversation of where we were stationed when and ended up that her husband and I were stationed in the 82nd airborne division at the same time, along with 17,000 of our closest friends. 

But the familiarity and the connection between us led to mutual trust. And trust is critical when we have to address challenging problems like food insecurity, inadequate housing or the cost of childcare. If the department of defense sends a fact finding team to a base or post or a camp, they're quote unquote, outsiders to the group. 

And there may be some defensiveness or some hesitancy to be fully honest or to fully believe what's being said. If the same questions or the same message come from a peer,  instant credibility. That's why it's so important to ensure that whatever population we're trying to support or whose problem we're trying to solve. The members of that population need to be involved to identify the problems, to propose the solutions and to share their knowledge with peers. 

The military strength is in its people and their connection to each other. And that is true for both when things go right and when things aren't going so well, so it's great to hear that MFAN is putting so much emphasis on peer to peer communication to identify and solve problems. 

The other point that I'd like to make is how I pointed out that in MFAN’s efforts to provide groceries to 800 service members at joint base Lewis McChord was a significant drum beat. That's a whole lot of people and it's a big event. 800 people is slightly less than an army infantry battalion. But the fact is, as we mentioned in our conversation, providing them groceries for right now does not solve their longterm problem. By the time we air this episode, those groceries are long gone. Single drum beats, large impactful events that bring awareness to the problem can be very beneficial when it comes to getting things done, it creates an undeniable spectacle. It captures people's attention. And then like a single drum beat can easily die away. Then perhaps a month later, another drum beat. Three months after that, another one. Single drum beats raise awareness, but they don't bring change. What brings change is a massive number of consistent small drum beats. 

Like single drops of water can turn into a downpour or single rocks can turn into a landslide, consistent drum beats constant awareness of whatever the problem is,consistent messaging, persistent and relentless pressure on decision makers, widespread trust among groups, struggling with the same concerns. 

These are how changes are made. Whether we're talking about suicide prevention, food insecurity, military spouse employment, none of these problems are going to be solved by one or two big events a year. Like Shannon says about MFAN, they're there for the big events and the small events for all military families nationwide and for individual families in particular locations near, or far bigger, small in the spotlight or out of it, the tricky problems are going to be solved by those that are consistently there constantly banging drums, even if it seems like no one is listening. 

Sooner or later it's joined by one more drummer than to, than dozens and hundreds and sooner or later the rafters start to shake. And the power of motivated people becomes undeniable. That's when change occurs. I'm glad that I was able to feature Shannon and the great work that MFAN is doing. If you enjoyed the show, let us know, drop a review on your podcast player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. 

For this week PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor course, 15 Reasons To Hire A Military Spouse. Employers are looking for untapped talent pools, one talent pool that can easily be overlooked as the diverse and highly educated group of military spouses.  Take this course to learn the top 15 reasons to hire a military spouse; you can find a link to the course in our show notes.