Episode 77 Transcription

Welcome to Episode 77 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families.You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.  

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission, our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Jennifer Goodale, the director of Military Family and Spouse Programs for the Military Officers Association of America, a leading national advocacy organization that plays an active role in military personnel matters and especially legislation affecting the career force, the retired community and Veterans of the uniform services. Jen served in the United States Marine Corps for seven years and deployed twice to Iraq. She is married to an active duty Marine and is passionate about improving military spouse employment opportunities through her work with the keeping a career on the move military spouse symposia series. You can find out more about Jen by checking out her bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some key points. 

DUANE: As a Veteran yourself, as well as a military spouse, I'm sure that your lived experience in regards to military life plays a huge role in why you do what you do, but I'm interested in hearing what brought you to the work that you're doing at MOAA and why it's important to you.

JEN: So it has to start way back when I was in high school, which sounds crazy. But, I have a twin sister and she wanted to go to the Naval Academy and she wasn't accepted and suddenly there was a Navy commander that showed up and said, did you know about these ROTC scholarships? And at this point I thought it was just the army.I thought there was a big army for the land and then another army for the water. My parents were both doctors. And so that thought hadn't crossed our minds, but my dad heard free college. So we applied, got these ROTC scholarships and then at Carolina, I was told you have to take physics and calculus to be in the Navy. Or you could wake up early in PT and join the Marine Corps. So I switched my option and joined the Marine Corps. And then when I did my service and I absolutely loved it. There was a moment of hesitation before I actually commissioned where I thought, I don't think this is the life I want. And then I never had a moment's hesitation after taking the oath. And so it was such a great experience that when my husband and I married and he was still serving, we made the decision for me to get out. I wanted to stay connected, but that was very challenging because we moved to Georgia for six months and then we moved to North Carolina and I kept trying to find jobs and being told, you're only gonna be here for a couple years, so I don't think we're gonna go in that direction.

 So when the opportunity arose and it was truly through networking, for me to join the military officer's association, I thought, okay, this is a way to work my way into continuing to support military families. At first, I started off in the development team and doing member products and services and things like that. But, within the last year I've joined the government relations team. And that is where I've truly found my passion in supporting these military families who sacrificed so much. And. everybody says, thank you for your service. And we appreciate what you do. It only shows in the programs that are developed and the attention that is paid, through supporting these families through the challenges that they face.

DUANE: I think that's obviously leaving the military, yourself, having that military service and the experiences that you had, when you say you wanted to stay connected, obviously you're connected to the military as a military spouse, but you're talking about, you wanted to stay involved. You wanted to be engaged in or a similar level in manner that you were when you were active.

JEN: Yeah, absolutely because, being on the periphery as a military spouse, there's a lot expected of you there. The military wouldn't operate without spouses doing all of the volunteer work they do. And while that's great and of course I served as a volunteer coordinator when my husband was in battalion command. That was a wonderful piece of what I wanted to do, but yes, my position now gives me an opportunity to provide lasting impact on military families.

DUANE: And I think again, we've talked about this on the show before, but the idea of the mission after the mission. When we were in the military, whether you spent, as long as you did or, 20 plus years like I did, there's always going to be a time, even if you're like the most senior individuals and you're in for  30, 35 years, there's always gonna be a time after the military. We don't really think about that when we're in the military. But then afterwards, there's this entire lifetime. I always say that I'm gonna be a Veteran god willing, twice as long, if not three times as long as I was in the military. So there is this idea of carrying on a mission after the service.

JEN: Yeah. And, Military Officers Association, our motto is never stop serving. And I truly believe that there are ways to get involved. You don't necessarily have to continue serving the military but you can serve in some capacity, everyone can. 

DUANE: Yeah, absolutely. So you oversee the military spouse and family programs and there's this advocacy piece you were talking about at the military officer's association of America or MOAA. What can you tell us about MOAA in general and the military spouse and family programs in particular?

JEN: So MOAA has a long history of advocacy. We've been one of the top lobbyists from the hill for the last 15 years. And we really truly focus on pay and benefits because there are a lot of advocacy organizations out there. Or I guess we could just call them lobbyists,who are working to get the equipment, the funding for all of the planes, the guns, the things like that.

You can't use any of those things without the people. And if we continue to erode pay in benefits, that's gonna be a situation. So MOAA's primary mission is advocacy. We do have 11 registered lobbyists that go to the hill on a daily basis and get involved in Congress and make sure that the legislation fits the goals and priorities that we've established for the year. We also have a host of transition services. We have a great career transition service team, and they provide webinars. They do in person training. So you can get a resume review, LinkedIn and a ton of different webinars. So you said everybody has to transition and you don't think about that.

You don't think about salary negotiation. That's something if you've served for seven or 27 years. You don't ever have to think about, you know, what you're getting paid and so does the rest of the world because it's all online. But when you have to go to the table and say, you know what, I don't need your healthcare benefits. So what can you do to offset that? Those are things that people might not necessarily think about that we help guide through the process. We also have two charities. We have the MOAA scholarship and the MOAA foundation. The scholarship is for active duty service members, either enlisted or officer and it's for their children or the children of retired officers. And that provides financial assistance for pursuing higher education. And then the foundation side, they do a suite of programs, including the military spouse programs, which we called Keeping A Career On The Move. They also provide financial relief to especially post pandemic for those people that fall in the category of not being eligible for, in other, relief agencies, like the Navy Marine Corps Relief Society, unless you're serving on active duty,  you don't have that unless you're a retiree.

Sometimes you don't qualify for things. So Veterans fall into this gap and that's where the MOAA Foundation jumps in and can help.

DUANE: As I mentioned before we started talking, I'm a huge fan of MOAA, and get the magazines in the mail all the time, as a matter of fact. But I'd like to dig into to you’ve mentioned about being a registered lobbyist in legislative advocacy. I've been involved there. I've had the opportunity to advocate, not as a registered lobbyist, but as an interested party, both at the state and the national level, going in and speaking to members of Congress. When you were in the Marine Corps, when we were active duty and had this conversation on another show recently, we don't think about talking to lawmakers. That's totally different than what we do when we're in the military. We're actively told you shouldn't engage in politics. I'm interested to hear what it was like for you, like first getting into going in and talking to a lawmaker, and what you may think about sharing that experience with listeners.

JEN: I think the important thing to note is that when you are in uniform, you still have every right to contact your lawmakers. And I think that gets overlooked, as you said, kind of it's taboo. You're not even supposed to talk to them, but that's definitely not true. And for military spouses, there's nothing governing whether or not you can talk to anyone.

So I think the most important thing is that your voice matters. So everyone should be their own best advocate. As a registered lobbyist, it just affords us more opportunity to have additional meetings or. to use funds if, as we need to support those efforts. What I think was the most fascinating thing is the number of bills that are introduced every year.

So we're working currently on something called the military spouse hiring act, and that's just a bill that would incentivize businesses to hire military spouses. There are people that have supported it as the legislation's been around since 2005. There are people who have supported it since 2005, but have had a hiccup and they're not on this year.

There are so many bills introduced every year. It's just a matter of bandwidth. They didn't even know it was reintroduced, or there's such constant turnover, especially within the staffers. The military moves a lot, but the staffers on Capitol hill, I think they might have us beat.

They move offices. I've reached out to some people thinking I'm we're following up on a meeting and all of a sudden he's in a new office. I think what matters most is when I have these meetings, they say, we haven't heard from our constituents yet. And so your voice matters, as an individual and being a constituent doesn't mean that you have to vote in that state.

It means that you reside in that area. So if you're in California, but you vote in Virginia contact both lawmakers. MOAA has got a legislative action center. We make it super easy to do this on the bills that we're working on, where you just enter your name and you're the state where you vote in and it'll automatically draft the emails and it's very targeted.

It'll say either, thank you for your support, or we urge you to support. And you can even insert your own story. So if you're a military spouse who struggles to find employment, or if you're a Veteran who's facing food insecurity, you can include your own story. And those are the things that make a difference.

DUANE: I think a lot of people, especially maybe service members and Veterans, military spouses, who have to make that shift of what you were talking earlier, that long term impact, they don't realize how easy it is to communicate with your lawmaker, like your state senator, your congressional rep.You're not talking to a staffer like your state Senator. There was a point in time in which, this was when Senator Bennett in Colorado, he was running for president, but I was talking to his chief of staff. And Senator Gardner sat down and talked to me, just me, the guy from Colorado who showed up for a half an hour.

And I'm like, don't you have more important stuff to say that to him. But like his staff was like, no, he wants to hear from constituents. And I think that a lot of people don't understand, like you said, how easy it is and how powerful that can be.

JEN: Right because we're all busy, we're busy with our everyday lives. And if you have to focus on getting your bills paid and going to work and getting the kids off to school or camp or whatever it is that. Sometimes you're like, oh, that's a bridge too far to contact my lawmakers. Especially like you said, at the lower levels, that's where you're gonna make an impact. The state liaison office works a ton of different issues. Some of the main ones are advanced enrollment. So if I'm moving from California to Virginia and I'm sorry, I keep using those states, but I moved from 29 palms to Quantico.

And so the that's my frame of reference. But, if I wanted to enroll my children in school, but I don't have an address, am I able to do that?  There's only 26 states that offer advanced enrollment. So if you contact your local lawmakers, we can get those kinds of things changed. And that also applies to state licensure. There are interstate compacts that guide many of the different professions developed through the defense state liaison office. And if you, and there's some states that are doing great. Alabama is one of those. It has a lot of good interstate compacts developed. California has none. So contact your lawmakers, make a difference.

DUANE: And you mentioned, as you were talking about the military spouse hiring act, what are some of the issues, and problems that military spouses, military families are facing right now? Are military spouse unemployment and underemployment, but also housing, is a significant issue, right?

JEN: Yes. Housing continues to be an issue. I think the pandemic brought to light how bad it was. So much so that D O D implemented a temporary BH increase the issue there lies in that. People were told not to apply for it. People weren't aware of it. It was only at 56 locations, but I think less than 5,000 service members actually took advantage of that.

And that was from the estimated 200,000 that would've qualified for it. So this year's NDAA at least the house version so far includes a provision to re-look at the calculation methods, because right now, BA is calculated in the spring and summer of this year for the rates next year. And obviously that's not keeping pace.

Also back in 2015, BH was reduced one percentage point till it got down to 95% of estimated housing costs and that's failing to keep pace. There are families that are paying out of pocket. Well over $200 a month to cover their expenses. There's a shortage in the rental market and when it comes to, okay, let's just buy a house.

We're not even competitive in that market because people are making cash offers. They're making hundred grand over the asking price. Military families can't compete with.

DUANE: And you take in the mobility of military families again, moving from 29 palms to Quantico, Virginia, better than moving the other way I guess. But going from 29 palms and what I would assume is a challenging market there to almost an insanely challenging market, probably in Northern Virginia.

JEN: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So let me put in a plug for 29 palms. It was probably the best duty station we've had. I've been associated with the military for 20 years, I love that place. But yes, the competition is so steep and you, people are buying site unseen or having friends go in and look at the house and just do a FaceTime tour, which is crazy.

And I think if you move once you understand how challenging it is, and then you immediately forget that because then you get established in your new place. And that's when I'm talking to staffers and I say, I've moved six times in 13 years. It kind of hits home. I think they're all well intentioned.

[00:12:43] They all thank you for your service. We appreciate all the hardships that you go through and we understand the challenges, but I don't think they truly understand the challenges. When you set up a household as it, first of all, you gotta find a house which is challenging enough, then you have to get your kids enrolled in school or whatever.

And then you have to look for a job and it takes on average, even the general civilian about five months to get that job. And if you're told, I'm sorry, we would hire you except that you're leaving in two years. Where does that put you now? At a loss, you can't apply for unemployment benefits. And then all of a sudden, it's time to start packing up and planning for your next move.

So I think just general conversations like this are so important and I hope that the civilian community is tuning into it because we can talk circles around each other. We already know the problems and the issues that we're facing. I love what PsychArmor is doing to get the word out and to provide training to anyone and everyone especially to government officials.

DUANE: You know you that idea of  and in your instance, you're talking about congressional staffers saying, thank you for your service, but that service component it's a whole lot, like there people say thank you for your service, but they don't understand what all of that service entails. And I think you bring a unique perspective being the spouse of a service member while also being a Veteran, a combat Veteran yourself, many might think of someone being one or the other, but rarely someone might think of someone being both, but a large number of dual military or current spouses were former military. That brings a different perspective to the situation.

JEN: It's definitely a different perspective. And I would say that for the first five years as a spouse, I never considered myself from that perspective. I thought of myself as the Veteran. And then as the time shifted now I've been a spouse almost twice as long as I was actually a service member. So I do identify as a military spouse first and foremost.

But, I always maintain that Veteran status. And so I have a Marine Corps broach that someone gave me when I got out of the Marine Corps and I thought, what am I gonna do with this broach? I am not 80. I do not need a broach. And then of course I started working for the military officers association and it has come.

It's been great, but I was wearing it in an event recently. And then a much older gentleman came up and said, please tell your husband, thank you for his service. And I thought, you know what, in 20 years, it's not gonna be like that and he was being kind and I didn't get my feathers ruffled just said, I also serve too.

And kind of open that dialogue. I think it's important to recognize that we are changing. The greater population is changing and recognizing service women. But we still hear those stories about female that parked in a certain spot and then got yelled at that's reserved for Veterans.

And I hope and pray that we're getting past that and that we'll do it sooner than the next 20 years. But I think in 20 years that won't be an issue. And then as a spouse and a service member, you run into unique challenges like when it comes to healthcare. If you're a if you have service connected disability that requires you to maintain your VA care, but you're also a Tricare beneficiary there.

[00:15:39] The systems, even though there's an electronic health records modernization initiative. First of all, it's going very slowly. Secondly, it's not really working right now. And so if you say I've, but I've seen my Tricare doctor for this, can the two systems talk? They can't. So now that's not only a pain in the butt to deal with, but you have to it's time, it's your time and your time is your money. And so that’s definitely something that I know. Some of the lawmakers out of Hawaii have been looking at and trying to ease that burden whether or not you have to just pick fine. I'm just gonna go with soul VA care.

Then if you're traveling overseas, you're stationed somewhere else. How does that impact the services that you're getting from the VA? There's a lot of different issues that fall under spouses who are also Veterans.

DUANE: Yeah, and I really like how you said that you identify now as much as a spouse as you did with a Veteran, but at one point you identified more as a Veteran than a spouse. Just like everything else, that's not always the case. I'd actually had soldiers that served under me that were wounded in combat but who considered themselves the military spouse and the caregiver and not considered themselves a Veteran until I said, hey, you need to go apply for service connected disability. I know what happened. But they hadn't considered them. Their image of themself was not as a Veteran. It was more of I'm a caregiver for this Veteran. I'm their spouse.

JEN: And a lot of times along those lines, it comes up that well, someone else needs those services more than me. While that is an honorable way to look at things, it's not gonna help you in the long run because your service connected disability might be here right now, at the low level, but maybe in 20 or 30 years, it's gonna be debilitating. And so you need to make sure that you identify that disability now and get the care that and the compensation that you deserve, because that does make a difference over.

DUANE: Oh, absolutely. And I think, and again, there's this, as you mentioned earlier, you think about I pay the bills, get the kids to school and make sure that there's food on the table for the day after tomorrow. We're really, a lot of times in our lives, we're thinking about the immediate, but things like, how do we think about things in the long term individually, but also organizations like MOAA thinking about things in the long term for, as you said, the force 15, 20 years from now. Jen, this has been great. If people wanted to find out more about MOAA and the work that you're doing, how can they do that?

JEN: You can visit the MOAA website. It's just www.moaa.org. It's MOAA just to spell that out. We're also on social media. We have a spouse MOAA Facebook page. We also have a regular one we're on LinkedIn. We've got a great career networking group. I won't estimate the number of people, but it's in the multiple tens of thousands. And that's just as I mentioned, I got my position at MOAA through networking, and that is absolutely the key. We have the best network. Military service members have the best networks in the world, and we need to learn to tap into them and networking just doesn't mean asking people for favors. It means creating relationships, providing favors for other people and making connections. And that's really how we can all get forward.

DUANE: Absolutely. Both, as we said individually, and as a group collectively. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

JEN: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Once again, this show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find out more about what they're doing at www.psycharmor.org. 

I appreciate the opportunity to highlight the work that MOAA is doing to support service members, retirees, Veterans, and their families. As you've heard in a couple of recent episodes, MOAA is another organization that is working with lawmakers to not only address current challenges experienced by those who serve and those who care for them, but also to impact longer-term solutions by changing the system within which they serve. 

Advocacy in general and especially legislative advocacy is not something that's often considered in the military community support space. We often think of meeting immediate needs, such as housing access to mental health, employment opportunities, et cetera. But the fact is that there are often real barriers to long-term solutions to these challenges and the barriers frequently require changes to laws and policies. 

And short of running for office, the way to introduce and influence those changes is to contact lawmakers. And that's where MOAA comes in. As Jen mentioned, legislative lobbying on behalf of equipment and programs is widespread on Capitol Hill. The latest weapon system training program, base location, all have their lobbyists who are meeting with lawmakers and their staff to advance their cause. 

And while we may roll our eyes at the process, it's the process we have. It could be used for good as much as it is for organizational gain. But with all the meetings to get lawmakers to propose or support legislation for new equipment or trading locations who is actually working on behalf of people using that equipment or training at those locations. 

While the latest combat vehicle or aircraft is important to maintain and improve national security, these vehicles are useless, hugs and metal without the individual operate them. And that's why organizations like MOAA and others who lobby on Capitol Hill on behalf of people, not equipment is so important. 

The other important aspect of this is the involvement of us, you and me in the process. I often say I enjoy politics with a little P, but I don't enjoy politics with the big P. Getting involved in politics, doesn't always mean running for office. Certainly can, if that's something you want to do, but it doesn't have to. 

The United States is a representative democracy. That means our government is elected by us. But simply voting for our leaders isn't where our potential involvement in government ends. If we're only engaging with our government officials every two years or four years as we fill out a ballot, then we're not taking full advantage of all the features of a representative democracy. 

We also have the right to contact our lawmakers and have a conversation about those things that are important to us. And as Jen mentioned, the lawmakers want to hear from us. That's part of the representative democracy piece. They want to hear our stories and understand our problems. 

That doesn't mean that they will always advance our cause or vote the way that we want them to, but the opportunity to be heard is a powerful thing. Shaking your fist at the television or venting your frustration on social media when you hear the latest news from Capitol hill is like screaming into the sky. We may get some immediate satisfaction out of it, but it's ultimately ineffective. If you were to take that passion, that conviction and look up the number to your local lawmakers office and call and leave a message or fill out a comment form on their website. You might be surprised at the response you'll get, you might find yourself speaking to someone who can and will make a difference. And in large and small ways you were helping those who served as much as yourself. 

So check out MOAA's legislative action center, which will be linked in the show notes and see what's happening in Congress and how MOAA is helping to make a difference in the lives of the military affiliated community. I hope this conversation with Jen has spurred you to some action. If you enjoyed the show, let us know, drop us a review on your podcast player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. 

For this week, PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor’s course Leadership Skills That Drive Impact. Legislative advocacy is one form of action that can lead to significant impact on behalf of those who serve in those care for them. This course is designed for those who are interested in learning how to use collective impact principles to foster collaboration and increase impact for service members, Veterans, their families, and their caregivers. You find a link to the resource on our show notes.