BTM72 Transcription

Welcome to Episode 72 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. 

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans and their families. Find the show on all the podcast players by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors, who also believe that education changes lives. This episode is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military cultural content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find more PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Amy Loony Heffernan, Vice President of the Travis Manion Foundation, an organization that works to unite and strengthen communities by developing programs, training opportunities, and events, designed to empower Veterans and families of the fallen, and then inspired them to pass on their values to the next generation and the community at large.  Ever since her late husband Navy seal Lieutenant Brendan Looney was killed in Afghanistan and awarded the bronze star with valor; Amy Looney has served as an inspirational champion for families of fallen service members, military families, Veterans, and American troops. 

A consistent voice to the national conversation and advocacy of Veterans and families of the fallen, Amy is frequently invited to address national audiences, do numerous media outlets and multiple personal appearances spanning the U.S. She is the coauthor of the book, The Knock At The Door, which will be linked in the show notes. You can find out more about Amy by checking out her bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points. 

DUANE: Amy, great to have you on the show today. I'm a huge fan of the Travis Manion Foundation. As I mentioned before we started recording and I'm grateful to be able to highlight the great work that you're doing. Before we get into that, however, I'd like for you to share a bit about your background and what brought you to serving with the Travis Manion Foundation.

[00:00:16] amy-looney-heffernan_1_05-23-2022_202202: Gosh. Well, thank you, Duane. It's an honor to be here with you. I'll give a little bit of a backstory. So my late husband, Brendan Looney served as a Navy seal and he was killed in action on September 21st, 2010. And Brendan was Travis Manion’s roommate at the United States Naval Academy and they were very close friends.

I had known Travis, Brendan and I had started dating back when we were in college. And, I went to Johns Hopkins and he was at the Naval Academy. So I got to know Travis very well. Obviously Travis was killed about three and a half years prior to Brendan. He was serving in Iraq on his second tour and was shot and killed by an enemy sniper and was trying to rescue two of his teammates to bring them into safety and gave his life in service to our country.

On April 29th, 2007. So Brendan and I were very devastated by the death of Travis. We had never lost anyone. We were obviously very young at the time, but hearing about people dying in war was something that just seemed like that those things happen to people that we didn't know. So it was very hard for us to just conceptualize what life would be like without our friend.

Let alone knowing Travis, his family, very well and wanting to be there and support them. So I watched Brendan go through that and really just, was in all of how he took his Navy seal training and really dedicated it to the memory of his friend, Travis. He really pushed through obstacles and I think Travis's legacy and what Travis stood for is what really motivated him. And I watched that for several years while Brendan was going through seal training. And, sadly, just days before Brendan was supposed to return back to our home at the time, we were living in San Diego, Brendan was killed in a helicopter crash on his last and final combat mission of that deployment in Afghanistan.

So my world was turned upside down and I immediately was just in awe of how my military family, my military community, everyone around me, the spouses, Brennan's teammates. So many people just stepped up and were there for me in a way that I didn't even know that I needed that help or that support. So I really turned to this idea of wanting to give back, because I just saw how important it was for me to give back to those that had given me so much in my time of need after Brendan's death. 

DUANE: No, it's definitely an impact to those of us who have served and I don't want to say necessarily those of us who have served or experienced the current conflicts, because this is the same in the Gulf War. This is the same Vietnam. This is the same, honestly, even in, peacetime deaths and, cold war. But the loss of loved ones, either the loved ones you served with, or the loved ones that were your family, really create not just an immediate impact in your life, but really that lifelong impact. Obviously your husband's reaction to Travis's death, but also then compounding that your reaction to his loss.

AMY: Yeah, it was. I never envisioned it and Brendan decided and told me that he wanted to be a Navy seal. I think I must've been very naive to think that bad things couldn't happen to good people. And I think it really struck me after we lost Travis and then three and a half years later losing Brendan on top of the loss of Travis was really hard because it made me really take a step back and realize the impact that it has not only on, watching Brendan's teammates and how they've struggled with it. But also the impact that it has on the families. Obviously myself, I'm watching Brendan's family go through, losing a brother, losing a son.

There's just so many challenges that come up and it's hard to manage. You really have to lean into what works for you. And that's something that I've always shared. Not everyone's healing looks the same. I like to go out and be serving and giving back. And that's something that's important to me. But that doesn't necessarily mean that another gold star spouse is going to feel healing is done through the same way. And I think what’s important for people to recognize is, live your own journey and follow your own path. And what resonates with you?

What are you passionate about? What do you find helpful in healing? I see so many people trying to will this work for this person. So let me do it. And I think it's okay to try things, but I also think you have to go with your gut and recognize don't force it. When something's helpful, it's there to be an aid and a support. And I think you have to lean into that when you find what's right for you.

DUANE: And I think, as you said there's a need to understand the reasons for the loss of a loved one, but I think for many service members, Veterans, family members that there's a need to make the loss have meaning. Like you said, through service in some ways, or maybe it's just a quiet remembrance or things like that. But I think, obviously when we have traumatic loss, whether it is tragically, perhaps through a non-combat death, like a vehicle accident or sudden illness or something like that. But especially when someone loses their life in service, there's a desire to make meaning of their loss in their sacrifice to service.

AMY: Yeah, absolutely. And for me, it was, I think what gave me peace is knowing that if Brendan was doing what he loved to do. And I think not that anyone wants to choose how or when they will die. But I think if you would have asked him if he had the choice, he was doing what he wanted to do.

And if that was him putting his life on the line, he was willing to do that. And I, as hard as these last 11 years have been for me in many ways, lots of ups and downs, I do find peace knowing that he was doing what he was passionate about and what he loved and what gave him a sense of purpose in life.

DUANE: And in some of that, and again, I've lost those that I served with and a lot of what I do, I continue on. And I think of them, obviously, in their legacy and that's really what the Travis Manion Foundation is, what you do is to carry on the legacy. Obviously Travis Manion Foundation has a very good reputation in the military support space for a number of reasons, but for those who may not be as familiar with the Travis Manion foundation, what can you tell us about the organization in general and help the listeners understand more about it?

AMY: Absolutely. We really see the value that the military community holds, the value that our Veterans bring. They're such assets within our own whelm and I think sometimes when people aren't connected with the military community, they don't necessarily understand the value add that those individuals want to contribute within their own communities.

So we believe that providing programming, investing in our Veteran community, investing in our gold star families and our military community as a whole, it has so much reward because when you invest in them and you train and provide them with leadership development. They then in turn, feel empowered to go out and be a value and a service within their own communities, all across the country.

And I think with so much negativity in our world that we live in today, it's so incredible to see individuals stepping up and being servant leaders right in their own backyards, making a difference, being a value and impacting and mentoring young adults across the country. I think it really embodies the work that we do in such a strong way that we live by the words that Travis Manion spoke before he left for that last and final deployment: if not me then who? 

And I think no matter what program, whatever athletic event, however you get involved with Travis Manion Foundation, it's really about living those five words: If I don't step up and do it, then who else will.

DUANE: No, it's interesting. You use the word investment, and obviously we think about investment is you put money into this. You put some resources into something, and you will gain something much greater later, right. That is going to grow. I had the opportunity to visit the Naval Academy several times. I live here in Colorado, the Air Force Academy West Point, they say it's an Ivy league education shoved down your throat, a nickel at a time.But it is an investment. And you think about the investment in your husband in Travis, that then paid off that much more. So that's what the military does is through basic training and all of the years of dragging my face through the dirt, that's what the military does with its service members, with the expectation that there will be much more to come.And that has been proven and the idea of organizations like Travis Manion Foundation compounding that investment so to speak, continuing to invest with a further expected outcome.

AMY: Absolutely. Because you know, the goal is for them to continue not only serving their time in the military, but then going out and being a value in their own communities and with their own friends and their own networks. I think a lot of people look up to those that have worn the uniform. And I think it's also interesting because sometimes there can be a little bit of a level of intimidation, like I have, a neighbor here that found out current husband, Joel, he served in the Marine Corps and a lot of people were immediately intimidated when we moved into the neighborhood. They're like, I don't want to talk to this Marine. He's terrifying. And then I think as they got to know him and recognize hey, he just wants to help you snow blow your driveway.

Like he wants to do things that are value and of importance because it's just been embedded in him to give back and to serve and to help others. I think that's just something that I see a lot across the board within our military community. Is that selfless service. 

DUANE: I think one of the unique things about the Travis Manion Foundation, very similar to other organizations, like the Mission Continues or Team Rubicon or Team RWB, is that the Travis Mannion foundation provides a way for Veterans to engage in their community. If someone wanted to go engage through fitness, then RWB is your place. You want to engage the disaster relief, obviously Team Rubicon here's one of a spectrum of choices. But the Travis Manion Foundation specifically supports giving back through mentorship through another generation.

AMY: Yeah, I, and I really believe, while we activate through service and athletic events other ways to engage. I think what really sets us apart is that we leverage our Veterans to play mentors to young adults across the country. The fact that we've worked with over 400,000 youth across the nation, I think is incredible.

And the fact that we like I said, trained and invested and taught our mentors to go out and facilitate this program, talking to young kids about what are your values? What are you going to stand by and how will you show up for certain situations? And I think what better of a way for our military community and specifically our Veterans to be of service and be able to share some of the things that they learn. It's not about training them to say, oh, you should go out and serve in the military. It's about showing them their experiences. Maybe you choose not to serve or wear a uniform, but there's so many ways that you can give back and be a value and be someone that is a person of character. And I think that's such an important message that our youth really need to have, especially in this day and age.

DUANE: And it also taps into something that Veterans, as former service members are very experienced that. I got a mosquito wings pinned on my collar, and then they said, there's a person to your left that you that's lower ranking that you now have responsibility for all the way up through my senior NCO ranks is that mentorship. that teaching aspect, that guidance, that, that professional development, even personal development. So there's a natural need and desire, I think for Veterans to be able to pass on or relive some of that mentorship experience. And there's not a lot of that in the post-military life. And Travis Manion foundation gives them an opportunity to do.

DUANE: Yeah. And I think to your point, Duane, mentorship is something that is already taught to you through your time in the military. So it's so incredible to see them being able to pay it forward as they go out and talk to these young adults. Because like you said, they're already trained to do that.

It's what you know, And, it's what you do. and I think it's, it's just so valuable to see that even though you may have had your time while you've been serving our country, you're still not able to continue serving and being such a value add. And I just what I've seen that has come through from not only the benefit, because the Veteran, as you probably understand, is they're finding an additional, new meaning, new purpose, being able to give back and see the impact that they're having on these young adults.But then you think about that really, that unintended benefit going to our young adults. And what they're able to do in their communities, in their schools, at home, within their own friends and networks. It's really incredible to see how much given the right mentorship and the right guidance that they can go out and be a positive role model and impact on themselves.

DUANE: And really the opportunity for the Veteran to be able to do that. So if the Veteran wants to engage, but doesn't know how to right? They're sitting on their couch or they may not even understand that they're feeling. Have, you know, unfulfilled or empty. And that's really, again, what the Travis Manion Foundation does through your cornerstone program, The Character Does Matter Program. And in doing that, you provide not only that opportunity for mentorship and character development to the youth, as you said, but develops that purpose and meaning for the service member and Veteran, and family members. And it gives them that reason to live, to be honest.

AMY: It's true. And I think so many times that people don't recognize that. And I think, I even go back to just the time during the pandemic, how many of us were isolated and we had so many of our Veterans reaching out saying hey, can we, can we do a zoom session? Can we do our leadership courses online?

They wanted that sense of connection and that community again, because I think when you're not having that and when that's lacking, that's when things go wrong. You need that support. You need that community. And I think it's so important to each of us. I know, and I was telling you Duane earlier, as a goldstar spouse, when I lost Brendan and my husband died, I lost a lot of my identity and it took me a while to figure out what was going to play a role in helping shape that back for me.

DUANE: And that's where again, the idea of the Character Does Matter Program. This is a very specific program, as you mentioned, there's leadership training, but this actually trains Veterans, not necessarily the, how to mentor, but actually has a constructed element to it that allows Veterans to be able to engage with youth, in a very structured way.

AMY: Yep. Absolutely. Yep. so Veterans will be trained by our team, on our curriculum and we will go into middle school and high schools, sometimes even colleges and universities across the country. And work with thousands of students. Sometimes we do things in smaller groups. There are leadership courses where it'll be over a course of multiple weeks where we break down the curriculum. We'll talk a little bit about each of the different values and things that are associated with that different character strengths and what they will do is do an more like a experiential type of approach to things.

So there might be an activity or something to help reinforce some of the lessons and things that they're being taught and what they're able to learn from that. So it's really neat to see the different ways that we're able to deliver and facilitate that. Sometimes we go in, like Ryan Manion, our president, she'll go in and talk to high school students who are looking to come to the Naval Academy and she'll speak to 2000 of them at one time doing just a presentation, talking about if not me then who and how you can live that and incorporate that into your life, through our character curriculum.

So I think it's just really powerful to see that there's a way to facilitate it and deliver it that really resonates for each of the Veterans that are out there being a mentor to those young adults.

DUANE: And I think, another aspect of this is, as you said, it's introducing these concepts of character to young men and women who may not be familiar. I don't want to say that they don't have character, but, those of us who are engaged in the military community, we live it every day, but we are a very small community.

And a lot of these stories like Travis's story, may not be widely known and the character traits and the values aspect of values driven aspect of his life may not be familiar to many young men and women. And this is a way for them to understand that most of my cousins have never left the county that we grew up in. That there's really not that broad awareness of the wider values and character systems, that many service members holds. 

AMY: Yeah. No, absolutely. And one of the things that I love about the program is the fact that a lot of our Veteran mentors, they can actually not only share Travis and Brendan's story, but they can also pick their own fallen hero that they're honoring and sharing different values that they live by what they stood for. And I think that just touches on the larger point of the importance of especially with, Memorial day, honoring the legacy of our fallen heroes, making sure that their names are spoken, understanding the lives that they lived in, the importance behind that.

To me, when you continue to speak someone's name, you share their stories, that they're still with us in very many ways. And I think there's so much that we can learn from our fallen and the stories and the lives that they shared.

DUANE: And Amy, you haven't used the term healing. but it truly is that right. It's healing for those of us who are honoring those that we've lost, but it can also be considered healing for, to be honest, the nation and even a couple of generations that might need healing.

AMY: Yeah, absolutely. I think we all, like I said earlier, we all find things to lean into that are helpful for us. But I think, for me, this the most effective way that I could heal, and I don't know if I'll ever fully be a hundred percent, but I think it's become such a part of my life that I've figured out how to embrace it and make something positive.

I think we all struggle in many ways. And I think finding I went through a lot of grief counseling. I had a wonderful therapist that I loved and adored, and she really helped me through a lot of things. But I think this was like my tangible way to be able to give back. So for me, it was the combination of both that really created this great healing process for me. 

DUANE: No, I think that's amazing. And also, as someone who has not experienced traumatic loss doesn't necessarily don't need to be someone who has experienced that traumatic loss to be involved with the Travis Manion Foundation, or any of these organizations. But it is definitely something that can help.

So if folks wanted to find out more about the Travis Manion Foundation, some of the programs get involved. If they have the desire to do, how can they that?

AMY: Yeah, I would. And to your point, Duane, Travis Manion Foundation is for everyone. It's for civilians, military community, gold star families. So there is something for everyone. So I would encourage you if you just go to our website, www.travismanionfoundation.org. In the upper top corner, there is a box that says, join the mission and you can check exactly where you fit in, whether you're a Veteran, whether you're an inspired civilian, you can check that box and it will show you all those different programming and opportunities for ways for you to get involved. 

DUANE: Absolutely. And I'll make sure that links to all of those are in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. 

AMY: Absolutely. Thanks for having me doing. 

 Once again, this show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory. That's free to individual learners As well as custom training options for organizations, you can find out more about what they're at www.psycharmor.org. 

One of the things that you heard from Amy is how healing and recovery, whether it be from grief, adversity or mental health conditions comes in many forms. Some of that is clinical. You heard how Amy credits her therapist for helping her understand many things. And some of that is nonclinical.

And the clinical and nonclinical healing happens in many different ways, for many different people as well. The idea that there is one single intervention or method clinical or not, that will heal every service member, Veteran and their family is simply not true. Think about it this way. When you walk into a grocery store, you have two things on your shopping list, cereal and candy. Not sure why those are the only two things on your list, but maybe your partner sent you to the store and you learned a long time ago not to ask questions. So breakfast, cereal, and candy. 

Easy choices, right? But if you walk down the cereal or the candy aisle lately, you have 80 linear feet, five shells, high of different choices. My favorite breakfast cereal or candy bar is probably not your favorite. And my favorite today is definitely not my favorite from 20 years ago. 

Paths to recovery and healing or like that. What worked for me may not work for you. And what works for you today may not be what worked for you 20 years ago. One method of healing may be sufficient for a period of time. And then something happens and you need another method. When it comes to cereal or candy, however, you have self-awareness about what you like and what you don't like. And you can tell by looking at the package, whether it has what you like and there aren't significant consequences if you choose something you don't like. 

Choosing paths to healing, however, whether clinical or nonclinical aren't as easy to understand or learn about. And that's where organizations like the Travis Manion Foundation come in. Just like many of the other organizations that we've highlighted on the show, the way that they accomplish their mission is by caring about and ensuring the welfare of those who choose to join them. Finding a trusted group of people, even if they're just a bit farther along the healing journey than you are, is a great way to figure out what's going to help you and those you support to heal and recover. 

The other point that I'd like to make is something else that Amy mentioned, how Veterans and their family members have a wide range of skills that are developed as part of affiliation with the military service. You don't just come out of the military with occupational skills. You come out of the military with life skills. And I don't mean just the ability to stand in the rain for hours at a time or march and a group in unison for no reason. But something like the desire and ability to mentor and support others. One of my earliest lessons as a young leader, was that a non-commissioned officer as a teacher. Maybe not like a school teacher, although I know a lot of Veterans who are school teachers. 

But someone who teaches other something. One of the things that any good leader knows how to do is to teach someone else how to do the thing that they know how to do. 

There are a wide range of things that we learn from the military. Both about ourselves and about the world. Psychology. I first became interested in the psychology of motivation and needs fulfillment when I was working as an army recruiter. Planning logistics, leadership theory, interdependent relationships and networking, conflict management on both individual and group levels. These are all things that I developed while I was in the military and examples of some of the skills that many Veterans developed during their military service. And military spouses develop an entire host of skills themselves. I was having a conversation with a colleague recently, who is both the department of the Army employee, as well as the military spouse. And she mentioned the wide range of volunteer positions that she had been in throughout her family's time in the military. There are so many skills beyond just the service members occupation that are developed while in the military. This may be preaching to the choir for a lot of you. Although the occupational skill trap is one that many Veterans fall into as well. 

But again, organizations like the Travis Manion Foundation know this. They're built around, not Lieutenant Manion, occupational specialty, but around his values, how he lived and express them and how his sacrifice embodied them. So kudos to them for allowing other service members, Veterans, their families, and those who support them to have a way to continue their service and put the skills that they developed to good use. 

So hopefully you enjoy my conversation with Amy. If you enjoyed the show, let us know by dropping us a review on your podcast player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org.

 For this week's PsychArmor resource of the week I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor course Why Veterans Are An Invaluable Resource To The Community.  In this course, you will learn about why taking the time to embark on a collaboration journey can ensure that Veterans and their families unlock their full potential and apply their invaluable skills back into their communities. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.