BTM59 Transcription

Welcome to episode 59 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. 

My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans and their families. Find the show on all the podcast players by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.

Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors, who also believe that education changes lives. This episode is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military cultural content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find more PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org. 

 On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Air Force Veteran, Dr. Densie “Deno” Cooper. Dr. Cooper is a US Air Force Wounded Warrior who works with PsychArmor as part of their Employment Education Initiative Program. Dr. Cooper is now an Organizational Behavioral Consultant as part of PsychArmor's Program Department. Dr. Cooper brings nearly three decades of Air Force Leadership experience to the organization. She also coordinates PsychArmor’s External Evaluation and Assessment Program. You can find out more about Dr. Cooper by checking out her bio in our show notes. 

Let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points. 

DUANE: As a recently retired Air Force Officer, I'm interested in hearing about your military journey and your transition, as well as what you find yourself doing in post-military life.

DENO: Thank you, Duane. And thank you so much for having me on your podcast  to have these conversations. Interestingly enough, when I joined the Air Force, I thought I was going to stay for four years. I have served my country and then I was going to go off and join the DC circuit and work for a Congressman.

I just had this vision of what was going to be, and as it turns out, why you joined is an interesting question, but why a stay is way more interesting. And so after 28 and a half years, I can say that there was far more good than bad. To me, that's like a success. I started off as a Support Officer and then got into the human resource side of things.

And then I got into academia. So I guess I would describe my military journey as dual tracked. On one side, I had those really cool command experiences. And then on the other side, I was an academic. Can you believe this? The Air Force paid for three master's and a PhD. Sometimes I can't find my car, but on paper I look like I'm cooking with oil.

 So it was interesting to have these two sides of my career. And towards the end, I was I think I had a brand for being an internal consultant. If there was a very interesting challenge or a scandal, in some cases. I was asked to join small groups of teams to understand what happened, why it happened and ways to move past that and transform.

My PhD is in organizational behavior and I find that the military has extraordinary practices and policies that are ahead of the corporate world in so many places, especially in this diversity, inclusion, equity, belonging stream. But I did have a career where I ended up as an Air Force Wounded Warrior.

And that's how I ended up leaving a couple of years earlier than I thought. Part of it was some trauma from a deployment. And then another part of that was a bizarre medical event where I ended up having an air gas embolism. I followed a routine endoscopy for what I thought was just a normal sort of ulcer.

And so I had to spend about a year and a half rebuilding myself. And during that time, physical impairment, some of the heavy stuff from a deployment also started to raise its head. And so I received really great treatment, as I was leaving the military. So my transition story is a little bit unique that way. 

DUANE: And as you were talking though, it's unique, but in the very same way. The Army for me paid for an associate's degree, a bachelor's degree and two master's degrees. So I'm like the most educated, you know, but, of course, people know that there are educational opportunities, but there are opportunities, that the military does that.

And then in the same way, one of the reasons why I got out earlier than I anticipated was I got injured jumping out of airplanes. But again, your transition story, it is a little unique in its details, but it can be very , non unique in its generality, because a lot of that's something I think that would resonate with a lot of service members leaving before they're prepared to. I gave my life to the service and they took their pound of flesh, so to speak.I think that's something that could be very typical for service members. 

DENO: For sure there is that injured and wounded population that's leaving before their time. And I will say that there were extraordinary programs in place, and I was a benefactor of a lot of those programs. And at first I felt guilty being in them because I'm a Colonel and I was in charge. I was in an o-six group command when I started to start taking a real look at this issue of PTSD and how it might be manifesting in my life. And then having my physical impairment with that, there was a lot of ego bruising and ego rebuilding, in that process. And I, when I talk to audiences, I really try to be very vulnerable about that piece because we came from a culture where our strength and our confidence and our compliance and our part of our professional reputation. And when those things get put into question is like putting Humpty Dumpty back together again. So I had an opportunity to believe this, or not to try out the FBI. 

And I realized that there are a lot more serious than I wanted to be. In terms of it when it was very serious law enforcement culture. And I was excited to be an analyst, but, I just found that wasn't for me. Then the military said,what about your interest in Child Protective Services. I'm an adopted child. I have an adopted child. I care about children. But realized no, I have no bandwidth for that work.

But I got to do this during my transition before my actual retirement date. And that's how I landed with PsychArmor because it was a nonprofit. It was about education. It was about serving a community that I cared about. And in bouncing around and some people do that after their actual retirement date and they have their DD 2-14. 

I was really grateful that the military allowed me to test out a couple of places. And I felt safe doing that because I still had my active duty paycheck. So I'm really grateful. And at that point, my ability to deploy my ability to, even though. I was in a transition for sure. Rebuilding, so I feel really grateful about that.

DUANE: And again, I think there are a lot of resonances with a lot of service members as they transition. That piece about the egos you were talking about, they offered to let me drive a desk for another two or three years. And in my mind, I was like, I'm a senior noncommissioned officer. If I can't run with the 17 year olds, there's no need for me to still be in the military right. There again, there's this concept of  I must be that Sergeant France thing. And there was really no understanding of not being that. So there was that identity transition. And then, like you said, my first job out of the military, I was there for 18 months. I was one of those statistics of the rapid change over of finding what I wanted to do.

And I was lucky to be able to have that sort of stability there. And again, this is how your story would resonate with so many individuals, in how they're leaving the military, to be able to find what their next mission is.

DENO: Yes. And, I think that part of my transition was recalibrating my identity because let's face it. We wore our power symbols. We were our occupational symbols. You just look at each other, you know, where you've been, what you've done and where you stack up in the chain of command and,there's a lot of clarity there.

So, the other part of it is, you can do all of these exercises in the transition workshops, what I'm good at, what do I enjoy and where's the intersection. And, that'll tell me my profession. But it really is a process and to trust the process and it will emerge. If you're anything like me, I want it done right the first time.

My expectations of myself to look appropriate and professional. It's a messy process, but I think that there is so much, I think, the term is the Sea of Goodwill. General Dempsey, I think said that with the non-profits and Corporate America and the support certainly for Wounded Warriors.

Like it wasn't my case. It is there and swimming in that might feel a little choppy, but it does get smoother. 

DUANE: And so one of the things that I understand about your work is you have your lived experience of the military. You also have this new experience of being a Wounded Warrior, for example, or having your physical challenges and things like that. 

One of the conversations that we've been having in the military and Veteran space is the importance of cultural responsivity related to military and Veteran culture. It's what really PsychArmor is trying to do, but also how it intersects with the concepts of diversity, equity and inclusion.

As you mentioned earlier, we can't forget that the other aspects of DEI, gender, race, sexual preference, ethnicity, et cetera, age. You have been focusing on addressing intersectionality between inherent cultures, right? Our culture of origin, and our culture of lived experience when it comes to military culture.

DENO: I'll just start that kind of thought. I look at my own life. I'm a native American woman. I have a disability. I'm a woman. I have come from an organizational culture that's understood by less than 1%. And I think it's that stability of understanding where my piece of the puzzle worked in the military big puzzle, and going through that now and helping organizations understand that military members by themselves are an underrepresented group. They're a small group. They have a vulnerability about them in terms of the demands of reintegrating into a society. Again, that they were inculturated for, whether it be two years or 28 years. And there's a lot of unlearning about that. 

So as a result we want to encourage organizations to think about including military members as a piece of their diversity initiatives, but also to remember that there's tremendous diversity within the military subpopulation. And, I like it when I see work where that says, you don't have to just be one thing that there is a sub identity and there are sub components that make your point of view, your worldview that can enhance organizations.

DUANE: And I think that's one of the challenges when we start to bring in an experience of occupation, like military service into the DEI conversation, Veterans lose some of that other inherent diversity, equity and inclusion aspects and get roped into well, all Women Veterans are X, for example. Somehow some organizations might seem to miss the mark by relying more heavily on the service member and Veteran aspect and not really differentiating those unique subpopulations.

DENO: Yeah. I'm starting to think about the age-ism that is out there too. And, I actually listened to a podcast that said, “Wear your hair down. Look more youthful, bring phrases into your parlawns, if you will, to appear younger and more relevant.” And I thought, wow, it's 2022, and I'm getting this advice as a 52 year old woman  to not be me. And so that's, I think,The DEI B conversation that age certainly needs to be a part of that because we know there is an inherent tension between Okay, boomer. I'm a digital native, and so another part of that conversation is the age piece. And I think that's me projecting a little bit. But I found that just really interesting because I am doing meaningful work in this area. And I found myself listening to that kind of a podcast. 

DUANE: No, and I think that's critical and I think that may be very different depending on what sector someone goes into. When I left the military and I was in my mid forties, after a 22 year career, and I went into the clinical space, the age-ism was flipped. Because people want an older therapists, like if they have a 27 year old therapist they sort of look at that.

But my contemporaries at my age, like I was just starting out in the profession and my contemporaries at my age had been doing it for 15, 20 years. And so there's this idea of almost like the military, our lives went on pause, especially, I think we're talking you and I as career service members, that we come out with a huge whack of experience, but then we're emerging into something that's almost totally unknown and it feels a little bit like starting over, especially can be difficult if you maybe you're experiencing some disabilities, for example. 

Or especially if you're used to being, “Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes. Sergeant. No Sergeant” like being someone of position in the authority and now you don't have that as part of your identity anymore.

DENO: I think that finding these narratives, I'm a lifelong learner.  I'm constantly learning, in terms of my own personal work. I'm doing a lot of reading about moving from role to role in terms of an identity to gracefully move into 50, 60, 70. And so I think it's incumbent upon myself to make sure that my own stuff in terms of what's between my ears is in the most helpful place.

 And I think transitioning under a medical disability to me, like that's just a cost of being Deno Cooper. I have physical health, I have mental health and I have to do my work to stay where I want to stay. I think leading indicators is a term, that we're seeing. It’s critical to take care of what's between your ears. And in my own lifetime, it was like, don't write bad checks, don't drink and drive. Don't cheat on your spouse when you're deployed. To this more positive, do go in and check out your own thinking and do go in and cleanse your own assumptions when you find yourself in a pattern of stickiness in an area or with a particular individual, whatever it might be. That's exciting!

DUANE: And I think there have been these conversations about, we just don't need to change our behavior as we leave the military. We need to change the way that we think. And what I was going to say and you identified it perfectly, was that kind of self-introspection that you're doing, is necessary, but not all Veterans have that experience.

Not all Veterans are told what you really need to understand who you are and who you want to be. I went through the transition process in 2013. It was better than it was in 2003. And I'm certain that it's better now obviously, then than it was when I went through. But it was more about transactional transition. As far as you give me your experience, I'll give you your resume. You show me your wardrobe. I'll show you how to dress. It was transactional. It wasn't about how do we change the way that we think about who we are. And like you said, we're having those conversations now.

DENO: Yeah. I love that distinction from transactional transition to transformational transition. It's an inside job and nobody can do that work for us. And other than to just put out cues, how happy do you want to be? How the joke is, why is that dog sitting on the nail? Then says, “When it hurts enough, the dog will get up.”

DUANE: The dog will get up. I think that's a really great point. I think some Veterans and maybe some Veterans are like, I need to continue to sit on this nail because I don't know what else to do, or I don't have any other. It's always been this, it has to be when I really liked that. We have to do the own work.

 And then on the other side, Veterans get out and they have to engage with organizations. And that's something else that you've started to work on is how organizations are prepared to receive Veterans. It's the idea of how Veterans express their readiness to support service members. As they're transitioning Veterans after they've transitioned, related to what the terminology even is. Veteran friendly, Veteran Ready, these kinds of things. Or this is something that you're starting to work on now as well.

DENO: Yeah. It was maybe just coincidentally, it all came together with my own confusion about what these terms mean, and then an opportunity that PsychArmor gave me to help a group think about what it means to be Vet Ready.

And I think when the good things happen in my life, it's usually I just get out of the way and these things happen. In this case, preparing for that presentation, I was just like, “Do we really know what we're talking about?” There's no consensus on that. 

And I found it confusing. So I wanted to put this into a framework that was visual and easy to understand. It seemed like people were finishing with Vet Ready. And to me, it is like ready for what, and there's still more that organizations can do because it's a tough transition.

Like  to our earlier part of the conversation from the we will to the I will. There's a book that Justin wrote, From We Will To At-Will: A Handbook for Veteran Hiring, Transitioning, and Thriving in the Workplace. So are people who are in the military, we get docked if we ever start talking in pronouns that have too many “I”s in it.

And, it feels wrong eventually, to talk like that because we know nothing is accomplished just by our brilliance, influence or personality or project management plan. I think that what I've seen with the organizations I've been exposed to is that they do care about bringing the work ethic and the strong value orientation into their organizational culture that Veterans bring.

So what I'm hoping to do is to start this conversation around, let's have some clarity around what these terms mean and how we would measure them and what indications would we have to see, or what data would we have to see to say that you're not just philosophy friendly, but you're actually engaged with your Veteran population in a way that allows them to really feel like they belong now with you. 

DUANE: Yeah, I like that concept. In thinking about it as a continuum. You were talking about this outer to an inner ring.  And I can imagine that just like any other continuum that there's revolutions that accompany may at one point, be fully, or one aspect of one organization may be fully Veteran engaged.

But another aspect of the larger organization may not be. Maybe I'm thinking Amazon right now. They have a really strong Veterans group, but I can't imagine that all of the company like Amazon is as engaged in military and Veteran and military support as some of their employee resource groups, for example.

So I really liked that idea of being able to say to organizations, where are you? And you can't tell where you are. You need a map, right? You need to be able to know, this is what this means and where you think you are. You're actually there are ways that you can actually benefit not just the service members and Veterans, but for the organization.

DENO: Thousand percent. And I think to keep it like human centered, a design methodology says we're dealing with a human being who is experiencing your organizational culture, trying to belong there to be productive. So in terms of that bullseye, the other circular model that I like to use being a person from HR is resource lifecycle. An individual is recruited. Then they onboard and then they're developed. They're utilized, sustained, and they transition. In the military, I always use the dust to dust, as a way to remember the human rights resource lifecycle. 

So you're right, there might be really, an organization might be really strong in how they, recruit Veterans, but then they might be very weak in how they provide professional development opportunities because like we both joked around were highly educated people because the military invested time and money to these degrees that we've approached probably really grateful to have. And so I think that by using the human resources life cycle is a way an employee experiences how they enter and leave an organization.

On top of this language of positive philosophy of Vet Friendly to be super positive. I feel like there is a very strong commitment to be Vet Friendly in corporate life today. We're not living the Vietnam Era of your father as we were talking about earlier. Those guys and gals came back with a public that didn't appreciate the service and how it had been executed.

So there are lots of indications that people want to hire our vets. They want to hire spouses of vets and just want to help that really be a positive by giving them a good framework so that they know I don't just do this training online and that's good for life, that has never has to be real looked at again. So I think that it's exciting to be a part of an effort that's trying to bring, more definitional clarity, more indication, more measures of if you're friendly with a positive policy or are you actually really engaged, changing policy and procedures to maximize how Veterans or their spouses experience your organizations.

DUANE: And again, identifying that and  quantifying that in saying that the desire to hire Veterans is necessary. But not sufficient to be engaged right. In an organization who thinks, “Sure, I hire Veterans. We have potlucks on Veterans Day and we have a board in the hallway that says thank you and things like that,” without any understanding of that being it. Maybe that's even, as you were saying, that's being invested, but it's definitely not making sure that everyone in your organization is ready and it's certainly not engaging them. And organizations will want to move towards that highest level of support. Like you said, not just to be able to support the Veteran. It's mutually beneficial for organizations. I think that's a really great project that I hope to see come to fruition soon. It is just because that conceptually helps organizations say this is where you're at, and this is what you need to do to get to the next level. 

DENO: Yes, PsychArmor is invested in that because there, the whole bottom line premise is culture. And we all get it. That culture matters, culture trumps strategy. And now we're talking about leaving a highly structured culture to join a variety of different corporate cultures and what individuals attract or self identify, whether they work for Amazon or in my case, not work for the FBI.

That's an individual journey kind of thing, but I feel like we can do better there. To be more helpful to organizations, whether they're profit or non-profit. We should clean up our language there and provide really good measurement and evaluation of what that means and what it would look like.

And it's not, oh, you did this course and you're good forever. I do think like a pilot coming from the Air Force there is that, you know how to fly the plane and we've tested you rather frequently to make sure that you're still qualified to fly the plane. I think that trend is engaged organizations that are so engaged like that they're pivoting and they're doing iteration and they're experimenting, in this volatile, disruptive world. And that there are companies that are truly using their traditional HR processes to ensure that, but Veterans are unique, and belonging. And that sense of, I make a difference here. I am valued. I work hard because I care about the why of who we are. I think that's one of the reasons that companies like Veterans because it goes in the heart. 

DUANE: And as you tried so hard not to be negative for example, but we can also smell BS. Veterans are very good at learning whether somebody is really very, legitimate or they're just faking it, which may be if organizations just saying I'm Vet Friendly and there's a slogan on the door.

Then the Veteran will smell that a mile away and we won't stay very long. We'll end up moving on, which is not good for the Veteran, not good for the organization. So again, there's this idea of a fully engaged individual who is a Veteran really supported by a fully engaged organization in supporting that Veteran.

I think it's a great concept. And, again, we could probably talk for hours on this because this is something that really is something that's resonating with me. So if people wanted to find out more about the work that you're doing, or maybe interested in hearing more about some of these things, how could they follow you or get in contact?

DENO: Oh, I'm on LinkedIn. I have a presence with PsychArmor and this idea of nonprofits. We exist to improve a social condition. The do gooders who are taking off where the government can't quite get there or where limited resources in a tight budget.

We really want to help and improve our social condition and, being a native American Woman I just wanted to finish with this, practice from native American culture. 

Back in tribal times were warring times, native leaders recognized that when their warriors went off to combat, they saw terrible things.

They endured, they behaved. Let's face it, terrible ways to win. And before they came back to the village, they would have special ceremonies that we involved dancing, but it was basically cleansing and washing you off and recognize that as a step before you came back into the tribe and Native Americans happen to be the, by proportion, the largest, minority population relative to its size across America.

It's just warrior and Native American, are in my mind almost synonymous, culturally. I think that's what we're trying to do in this way is wash you off a bit, wash your mind off a little bit and get you ready to enter a new organization that really wants you. And sometimes they just don't know how to help you really belong.

And at the end of the day, it's just human beings. Making other human beings connected and valued and feeling that true sense of connection. That's I think what we're trying to do there.

DUANE: Because reintegrating those warriors back into the culture. As you've mentioned they were necessary like the, they were needed to not be warriors anymore because they were needed to be, whatever it was, the hunters or the gathers or the caregivers or tribal leaders, whatever it was.

They couldn't afford to go sit and collect disability for example, and not do anything right. It was beneficial for the warrior to be cleansed from the combat, but it was also beneficial for the community because the community needed them. And they need us now.

DENO: Yeah. And so I think that's a beautiful idea. I think it might be more about moral injury than maybe PTSD. When I got introduced to the concept from a friend of mine at War College, we were talking about it, whether it was the moral injury, you do bad things. You experienced bad things. Trauma is unpleasant, but it's a process to get back. I just want to help organizations help the warrior help themselves, but also help them in that process. And there's a norm around that. That's just, oh, it's time for the cleansing ceremony before you reintegrate into tribal life. And this isn't let's get drunk at the Falcons, or other practices that we know of from our time deployed, this was quite spiritual and cultural and unique to native American culture. But I think the idea is still there. 

DUANE: Yeah, no. I absolutely agree. I think it was valid. I really appreciate you coming on the show today.

DENO: Thank you so much. I love the work you do, Duane. Thank you for your own service and the skills you have to turn a conversation into something. That'll be interesting for others to think about.

Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor. PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. And you can find more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.

The first point that I'd like to make is a unique quirk of military culture that isn't often discussed. The difficulty that Veterans have with ambiguity and post-military life. As Deno mentioned in our conversation, one of the things that Veterans need to learn after leaving the military is the uncertainty that exists in the civilian world that simply wasn't there in the military. 

As she said everyone had their rank and authority displayed. One glance at another person's uniform told you everything that you needed to know what branch of the military they were in, what their rank was. whether they were officer enlisted, where they fit in the hierarchy relative to where you are and where the two of you were in relation to the rest of the military in the same unit, in the same occupational specialty, all of it. And that certainty didn't just apply to knowing who when and where to salute someone. When I woke up on any given morning for over two decades, I knew where I needed to be and when I needed to be there, usually what uniform I had to wear when I got there and hopefully what was going to happen when I did. Not always for that last one or maybe even very often. 

But yes was yes and no was no. If the answer was no then we knew what we had to do. When a service member leaves the military, however, that certainty is no longer there. Supervisors go by first names, which may be familiar for officers, but it's certainly not the norm for us enlisted folks. But decisions are rarely made quickly and communicated clearly. And there were a lot more opinions in maybes than there are definites than this is the way that it will be kind of conversations. So I just wanted to touch on that brief point. If you're somebody that works with Veterans, ask them about this. If the adjustment to ambiguity and post-military life was a struggle for them. I hope you have some time when you do ask them, because you're probably going to get an earful. Now I wanted to make that first point briefly because it was something interesting that came up for me after my conversation with Deno. 

The second point is something that I want to spend a bit more time on because my conversation with Deno sparked some thoughts in me that I've been chewing on for a couple of days. 

If you're a frequent listener, you know, that we hear a Behind The Mission and at PsychArmor are concerned with both applying principles of diversity, equity and inclusion to the military affiliated population, as well as ensuring that DEI principles are considered when supporting subpopulations of those who served in those who care for them. 

On the one hand, military culture is a distinct culture to be considered amongst the other diversity considerations, like race, ethnicity, gender, et cetera. But on the other hand, honoring the intersectionality of those other diverse populations within the military. As is often the case with these conversations my guest says something that sends me spinning off in a direction that I hadn't considered before this time. It was when Deno said military members are an underrepresented group. They're a small group. They have a vulnerability about them in terms of the demands of reintegrating into a society. 

And we've heard that before. Veterans and family members with direct connection to the military are an underrepresented group in many aspects of post-military life. Underrepresented in the workforce, underrepresented in the community, underrepresented in leadership, whether it be in the public or the private sector. 

Much of this has to do with the smaller military, but it also has to do with the widening gap between those who serve and those who didn't. Where Veterans are not underrepresented is in the justice involved population, in the rates and incidents of death by suicide. In physical, psychological and behavioral health concerns, divorce, and a number of other indicators of a lack of adjustment to post-military life. 

This is related to the particular vulnerabilities that Deno was talking about. Those who served did so for a number of reasons and a vast majority of them did so honorably and with distinction, but the military is a tough life and it can do a number on you. So in that sense, like other populations, such as gender, age, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender representation, and others, Veterans' experience a measure of under-representation and greater vulnerability to undesirable life outcomes and post-military life. There was a third point and this is the one that has my wheels turning over the past couple of days. 

Unlike many of those other populations of focus Veterans are not under resourced. They're not marginalized in the way that many of these other populations are. This opens up a whole new set of problems. Both with including Veterans in unique populations, but can also open up problems when addressing intersectionality of these populations. 

Dr. Deno Cooper,  a Native American woman who is a wounded warrior and a retired United States Air Force Field Grade Officer likely has access to vastly more resources that are available to her because of her military status than those she might've grown up with. 

I grew up as a blue collar kid from suburban St. Louis. My mother is a seamstress. My stepfather is a maintenance man. My father was a security guard. We didn't have much growing up. We were socioeconomically disadvantaged, which is why the military was both a way of escape for me and a path to a better future. 

 And the resources that I have access to are light years beyond anything that I've ever thought possible. The military is often both a blessing and a curse, but in this particular aspect, it most definitely is both. Like other populations, the military creates a measure of risk for poorer social determinants of health. But there is also a measure of privilege that comes from being a Veteran that other populations do not have access to. Yes, of course, some Veterans experienced negative judgment from their peers. But in general military services are not seen as something as negative. Yes, it's hard to ascribe a privileged status to a Veteran who is in jail or unhoused. 

But the fact is that homeless unemployed, incarcerated Veteran likely has infinitely more resources then their non-military counterparts sitting right next to them. So, yes, Veterans are underrepresented in post-military life and they do have unique vulnerabilities that could lead to lesser life satisfaction, but they are not under-resourced or marginalized, like other diversity populations. And that's important because that leads to a number of questions. Why if the military affiliate community is so well-resourced the sea of Goodwill to refer to Deno's reference. Then why do the vulnerabilities exist? 

Why the high numbers and rates of Veteran death by suicide. Why the high rates of justice involvement or substance use concerns in the military? Yes, the military contributes to those factors, but the Veteran status mitigates those factors through access to resources. Why are they still so significant? 

Another question is if the military affiliated community is so well resourced, how does this impact someone whose intersectional identity includes military Veteran status? Does it create more vulnerability through a distinction in their subpopulations? As in, you're not really one of us because you went off and did this other thing, for example. 

Is this privilege of Veteran status, something that is a hindrance to incorporating DEI principles and supporting the military and Veteran population. And here's the one question that's been going on in my mind and the optimist in me hopes that it's the one that we can really start to address as a community. Like so many things, the military and Veteran community can be leaders, both individually and collectively. Deno mentioned it in our conversation. Can we demonstrate that yes, this population is underrepresented and yes, they experience identifiable vulnerabilities, unique to their culture and experience. 

But this population is appropriately resourced, can we make a significant difference in those vulnerabilities. And if we can demonstrate that, can we then do the same thing for other populations to ensure that they are adequately resourced as well. In other words, once again, as Veterans go, so gore nation. 

If providing resources to an underrepresented and vulnerable population makes a difference in their lives and improves the social determinants of health., how can we apply those lessons learned to other underrepresented and vulnerable populations that are not as well-resourced. Three questions I have for you. 

If Veterans are so well-resourced why the high numbers of negative life events in the Veteran population? How does the intersectionality of a privileged status like military service impact subpopulations of Veterans that are traditionally under-resourced and perhaps most important from my perspective, how can we take the lessons that we're learning from resourcing a vulnerable population and apply them to other populations. I don't have the answers. Of course. I'm just one guy trying to move a mountain, a pebble at a time, but guess what? If there are enough of us picking up pebbles at the same time, then the mountain will be moved before we know it. 

So that's a little bit of a heavy conversation that came to me and it's still rattling around in my head. Overall, my conversation with Deno was related to transition. And that's the topic of this week's PsychArmor resource of the week, the course, What You Should Know About Transition. Transitioning from military service can be difficult. It's more than just hanging up your uniform and putting on civilian clothes. In this course, you'll receive a brief overview of resources and tools to consider during your transition. If you were someone you know, is about to, or has recently transitioned from the military into post-military life, check it out to a link in the show notes.