Welcome to episode 144 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor's trusted partners in educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcast guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans and their families. Find the show on all the podcast players or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.

 Thanks again for joining us on Behind The Mission. Our work and mission are supported by the generous partnerships and sponsors, who also believe that education changes lives. This episode is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military cultural content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. You can find out more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org. 

On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with army and army reserve veteran, Bruce Townsend. Bruce is the chief of employer engagement for the employer support for the garden reserve and office of the department of defense that promotes understanding between reserve component service members and their civilian employers, and to assist in the resolution of conflicts of rising from an employee's military commitment. You can find out more about Bruce by checking out his bio in our show notes. Let's get into my conversation with him and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points. 

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: Bruce, thanks for coming on the show today. Looking forward to sharing the great work that the employer support for the Garden Reserve does. Before we get into that though, I'd like to provide you an opportunity to tell us a bit about yourself and why the work that you do with E S G R is so important to you.

Track 1: Well, hey, good morning, Dwayne and thank you. don't wanna talk too much about myself, but you know, like the bio said, I served, for, 28 years, about half of that on the active, component, and then another half the other 14 years in the reserve. And, when I went into that, I kind of went into the reserve component with a chip on my shoulder.

You know, hey, I've been, I've been on active duty 14 years. I can run circles around these part-timers and very, very quickly. It, became apparent to me that managing a full-time civilian career with what amounted to another full-time military career on a part-time basis was extraordinarily difficult.

And, my first encounter with E S G R where I really had to reach out to E S G R. Was, when I was working for another federal agency and, my supervisors, they weren't being unsupportive, but they were certainly sharing their displeasure and frustration at my frequent absences for reserve duty.

And I put them in for one of the E S G R recognition awards And, the attitude changed immediately after that. And I've been a big fan of E S G R ever since. Fortunate enough, almost six years ago to land this gig with E S G R. I really do, support the mission of what, employer support of the Garden Reserve is trying to do.

And I like to think I'm enthusiastic about it.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: that idea of leaving active military and, it's a common step, right? For a lot of service members. I think when I shared, before we got started, I initially joined the Army Reserves. I was in the Army Reserves for about A year before I joined active duty, and this was in the early nineties, and so a lot of the people in my reserve unit had just left the Gulf War, or maybe they served for some active years. there's that idea, like you said, there is the hubris maybe of the active duty attitude saying that, oh, this is a part-time gig. But once you actually get into it and it's not just one week in a month, two weeks out of the year,

and. A lot of active duty service members get a pretty big shock when they join the reserves of the guard.

Track 1: That's exactly right. And, a shock, an awakening, whatever you want to call it. but it's certainly, if you're doing it right, if you're trying to do a good job, you find out just how difficult it really is.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: Yeah, there's a lot of unique aspects to, garden Reserve, service that I think people aren't familiar with. One of the stories I say that when I was in the reserves, my first sergeant in his civilian job, was the supervisor of my company commander. in their civilian job, he was the supervisor, but in their military job, the commander was like, those kind of unique things, those kind of unique relationships, are really what makes things different than maybe active duty.

Track 1: very, very true. And that is not, that is not an uncommon occurrence in the reserve component, by any stretch.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: I've had colleagues I'd mentioned to you before, been involved with the S G R, have a lot of respect for the organization and the folks that are in it. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about E S G R and what the organization does.

Track 1: Okay. very, very simple. I like to call this my elevator speech, although we're gonna go up many floors. employer support of the Garden Reserve or E S G R as we call it, started actually in 1972. And at that time in the United States, that legislation had been passed to get. Rid of the draft and go to an all volunteer force, which actually occurred in 1973.

E s J was four in 1972, because the Department of Defense and the US Federal government in a pretty good, exercise of foresight realized that with an all volunteer force, we are going to have a reserve component that can be relied upon in emergencies and when needed. We were also gonna have to make sure that, employers of those, part-time service members were going to be, supportive of that and understand what the role of the reserve component is.

Just very quickly, the reserve component is, uh, the National Guard, the Air National Guard, and then the reserves of the Army, Navy Air Force, United States Marine Corps, and the United States Coast Guard. We call those the seven Seals. So anyway, 1972 we formed E S G R, and at that time, the reserve component.

Was what we like to, refer to historically as a strategic component, meaning that, it was only gonna be used in time of national emergency. that, that World War III scenario whenthe Soviets crossed through the fold, the gap and the whole thing just blows up. That was the mindset at the time.

And the National Guard, of course being used, within the states for, you know, emergencies or, or disasters, hurricanes, tornadoes, those kind of. in the early 1990s when a desert storm happened, that was the first time that the reserve component got mobilized in large scale. United States Federal Government Department of Defense realized that at that point, The reserve component was no longer really a strategic force.

It became a tactical force. And since that time, and especially since events following, September 11th, 2001, the reserve components have been mobilized and activated nearly constantly. And that's been, September 11th, 2001. That was 22 years ago now. first reserve components mobilized and on the ground in a foreign country.

After that, We're in November of 2001, we had the first reserve, troops, the ground in Afghanistan. And since then, and it's like you said, the one week in a month and two weeks a year, that, that was the old business model that is long since gone. Very, very few reserve component service members in whichever part they're in.

Do that one week in a month and two weeks a year. the constant need for training, for schooling and the, deployments really, it's slowed down the last couple years, but it has by no means gone away. we still have a very dynamic reserve component. all seven of the seals being mobilized and individuals within those services being mobilized and, activated and sent all around the country and all around the world.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: And so I, and you alluded to it before, even with your own personal experience, that, E S G R as an organization supports the Garden Reserve service members engaging specifically with their employers. Right.because it's not the full-time thing. but it's not only beneficial, it's necessary, like this is a, like the E S G R, provides, and sometimes even enforces, legislation around protecting, the reserve and guard component service members,

Track 1: I would, maybe enforcing is probably not the right word, but we certainly, what we certainly do is we remind employers that there is a federal law, it's called the Uniform Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act, and it was most recently updated in the mid 1990s. And, it basically says every employer in the United States must.

support their, employees who serve in the guard of the reserve. And they can't be terminated because of their military duties. that's the short version of it. And, what E S G R does, we have a wonderful, entire team of people at the US federal government level, and in every one of our state and territory committees, we call them our ombudsman.

And they, it's their job to sort of, work with the employers and the service members when an issue comes up. an employer doesn't understand what the law says or, simply doesn't like what the law says, or perhaps the service member has to be gone, for a longer period of time than they thought.

All sorts of different situations. What we do is we go in, our ombudsman will go in and they'll work with them and try to mitigate and, circumstances and make sure that everybody understands. How the law protects the service member, but how it can also support the employer and, and the, you know, the E and E S C R stands for an employer.

We really do wanna work with the employers. And make them understand that the law's there to protect a service member, but it gives them certain responsibilities and rights as well. it, it can be abused on both sides. What E S G R tries to do is keep it from getting into, that enforcement mechanism and,and keep it out of the legal system if at all possible.

and by and large. Our E s R Ombudsman are very, very successful at making that mitigation, making it work, and everybody leaves leaves the situation, if not happy, at least satisfied that the law and the, and the requirements have been met.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: One of the things I've always valued about E S G R and,and people may not consider this, but it really is, supporting national security because if a, a reserve or guard component, if they're having struggles with their employer, I can't do both my military service and my civilian employment, then they may choose to leave the guard of the reserve.

They, may not continue in their military service if it's a, I have to choose one or the other. it may be a forced choice that, that nobody wins as you were talking about. but this is actually a way to be able to, continue to provide support. and again, as you've said, it is a critical component of our national security apparatus.

Track 1: you're exactly right. And, just for myself, I had always known about E s R when I got into the, army Reserve. But I didn't really need them until, a deployment came up following nine 11, I had to go. And when I came back from that deployment, the job that I had in the Army Reserve required my presence much more often than we thought it was gonna, my employer at the time, although I can't say they weren't supportive, they were frustrated and aggravated that, it seemed every week, two weeks, every month I was giving them another set of orders and I was gone.

I put my employer in for what we called a Patriot award. And, we had a couple of E S G R volunteers. Two or three weeks later, they got in contact with me. We set it up, they came in, they presented my boss, the manager there with a, piece of paper with the Secretary of Defense's signature on it, an official seal saying that he was a patriot because he was supporting me in my military duty, in my absences.

And I gotta tell you, Dwayne, after that, every time I. I got that phone call or that email that I was gonna have to go somewhere. I would go to him and say, I, I gotta go again. And his attitude was if it was effusively supportive, go, Bruce, do a good job. We got you back. and it made all the difference in the world.

So that, that's another part of E S G R that I really is where we can reward employers. For not just for following the letter of the law, that's easy and it's mandatory, yay you if you follow the law. But we reward them for going beyond the letter of the law and supporting the spirit of the law and what it means to, have employees who serve in the guard and the reserve.

I.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: And I think there's, there is that, that awareness development or that education component. As you were talking, I'm thinking about how a lot of times you I other service members, youwe're aware of and we receive the thanks of a grateful nation. that imp. Employer who is not in the military, who's not affiliated, received the thanks of a grateful nation, received the thanks of the secretary, the Department of Defense, or, or what have you. I think that can be very beneficial to it. it didn't just support that manager. We all have business networks likely in the same industry. That manager saying, Hey, this is a really good thing, you my colleague in my supply chain who are supporting this. You should also be aware of this, it's sort of a rising tide lifts all boats.

Track 1: Yeah, very, very true. And I've been to like, more than I can count, I've been to these, presentation ceremonies where an employer was either given a, a Patriot Award or one of our other, One of several of our other rewards and, They are often overwhelmed with emotion at that because it's,it's like you said, it's a recognition for them, not just for the service member.

I try to be very humble when somebody thanks me for my service and I thank them back and, I say God bless or something, but an employer getting that kind of recognition, it really is. it, it's moving for, the vast majority of them, I can't remember one where the employer wasn't, like I said, almost overwhelmed with emotion because of it.

and I just wanna, circle back to something else you said, you know, recognizing the employers, and it is a military readiness feature of E S G R that we try to mitigate those,those issues and support the employers, make them understand how important the reserve component really is. Like I reserve component.

in, in many cases, especially in the Army, and I can speak army 'cause I was army, the army, the full Army really can't do its entire job without relying on the reserve component. They've set it up that way. It's, it works. the reason it works is because in the reserve component, You have a lot of, individuals with some skills and mindsets that are not necessarily needed all the time in the active component.

and they also bring a perspective to the active component, which is, very stove piped. It's very rigidly structured. reserve components can come in with some fresh ideas, maybe different perspectives. the employers are just a gigantic part of that. They like to feel like they are, Contributing to, if not participating in, national military readiness and the, defense of the United States of America.

So it really, E S G R definitely is what they like to call a combat multiplier.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: Yeah. and I, I have seen that and, and not only have I seen that, I think I've seen the need of it, as you were talking about, the unique needs of Garden Reserve service members have really been sort of, focused on since nine 11. in my deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan, I work closely with units from both the Garden Reserve and had attachments to my units who were guards and reservists. But when I redeployed, I returned to my military base where I had the structure and support. That's not the universal experience for Garden Reserve soldiers. when, and especially when it comes to employment, that's where E S G R provides some of that support.

Track 1: you're absolutely right. And, and as somebody who, uh, you know, came back, uh, my deployment was with the reserve component when I came back, you're right. There was really no, support system or network or anything in existence at that time. And e. E S G R does what it can, to be supportive, but, you're right.

It, it can be tough and the employers, you know, need to understand, the needs of the service members post-deployment as well. how I really found my way into working for E S G R was, uh, I was, uh, a project officer for a, another program that still exists in the reserve component called the Yellow Ribbon Reintegration Program, and E s R was a major component of that, and it's like that was designed to support the reserve components and their families.

Pre and post-deployment because you're right, they don't live on a military installation in most cases. They don't even live near one within 50 or a hundred miles of one. So the reserve component,they're your next door neighbors and your buddies, they might, they might own a business in your small town or work for uh, or mill or, or a car dealership or a law firm.

these are just examples of all the different things that the reserve components, uh, employees do. In their civilian occupation versus what they do in the military. and a lot of major reserve military units. Are not located anywhere near a military installation either. that's the beauty, the beauty of the reserve component, but it's also sometimes a great big challenge.

And E S G R really does work with those employers and those service members to try to bring as much of that support as absolutely as we can, as often as we can, and as quickly as we can.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: And I think the idea of a national network, as you'd said, you, you know, E S G R is a national but you also have, local state level individuals. I recall having a conversation with a colleague who was in a reserve unit in southeast Kansas, and people in his unit were in Missouri. Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. And and it would be hard for any one individual like that company commander, first Sergeant, to understand all of, to reach out to the employers or things like that. Whereas you have a national network that if there is a component member, in one state, when I was in the reserves, my reserve unit was in another state, than where

I reside. And so I think that's really a value of where E S G R having that national network, to be able to support the reserve, and guard component member, regardless of where they drill or where they live.

Track 1: you're a hundred percent correct. We have an active committee in all 50 states and in the four territories of the, district of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, and Guam, and the, Northern Marianas Islands. We have, committees all the way out there. And like I said, every state.

They primarily will work with the s, the Reserve component service member. Like you and me, we lived in one state, but our military unit was in another, we could work with, both E S G R committees if it came down to that. but your great example of the unit you with, you know, members from all sorts of different states around there.

The state, where they live is probably where the E S G R committee can,can help them the most because that's probably where they work in their civilian career. And that's what we're all about. I really enjoy working with the state committees. I work at the headquarters, you know, in the Washington DC area, but my job, I really couldn't do my job without, depending on those state committees, wherever it is that I'm going and working with a, uh, major employer.

and before I. Veer off of that subject before we forget to bring it up. Dwayne, I wanna bring out, E S G R, although I am a paid employee of the Department of Defense and the federal government, E S G R is staffed primarily and overwhelmingly by volunteers. There are, right now there are, something just under 3000 volunteers for E S R all across the United States in.

And they have, they have no paid employees on their staff. We have a contractor for administrative stuff, getting that the, the official government documentation, right.in most of the states and territories. But by and large, we have a small staff at headquarters and everybody else is volunteer and they do.

Absolutely outstanding work. Those ombudsman I talked about earlier, they are all volunteers. They do this for God and country and to make sure that, that our readiness and,and E S G R remains relevant.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: and I think because, and as we were talking about before, not only is it beneficial, it's necessary, we're just, helping people who get along, get along better, and really try to be able to support the needs, the unique needs of guard reserve component members. This has been really great. if people wanted to find out more about what E S G R does or how they can get involved, connect with their state committees, how can they do that?

Track 1: The best way, and I hate referring people to a website, but it really is the best way. it's www dot esg dot mill, and and even if you type in sg.com, it's probably gonna bring you to the right website. But on that website, we can, we have links to all of the, the state and territory committees.

We have information about all of the E S G R awards that an employer might be eligible for. and in particular what we call the Freedom Award, which is the highest award we give every year. it's, it is called the Secretary of Defense Employer Support Freedom Award. Last year we had just shy of, 1900 nominations for that award, and only 15 recipients each year are, get the Freedom Award.

It is very prestigious. It's signed, it is, awarded by the Secretary of Defense in a nice ceremony in the Pentagon. we reward employers, uh, both in the private sector, large, small businesses and in the public sector. police departments, school departments, those kinds of things. So the website has everything you need to know, and if you're a service member and you're having an issue and you haven't used E S G R before, the website will lead you to the right state, the right committee, the right people to help you out.

And of course, you can always try to reach out to me as well.

duane----he-him-_61_10-05-2023_063639: that's great. I will definitely make sure that the links to all of those are in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Track 1: My pleasure, Dwayne, and I hope you and, all the listeners have a really wonderful day.

 Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory. That's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. And you can find more about PsychArmor at www.psycharmor.org.

It was extremely helpful to me, even though I served for 20 years in the military because I realized that I was holding onto some outdated concepts Regarding the reserve component forces will also confirming some of the other things that I understood. One of the biggest takeaways for me was how Bruce explained that the role of the garden reserve components has transitioned from a strategic force to a tactical force. As he mentioned the old idea of one week in a month and two weeks out of the year, hasn't been true for a very long time. When I joined in the early 1990s, just after the Gulf war ended, my father who had served in Vietnam, discouraged me from joining the active duty army. 

And instead recommended that I joined the reserves. His point was that I should join the army reserves to get money for college and to get a degree. And all I would have to do is go to basic training and do army stuff for you. Guessed it one week in a month and two weeks out of the year. He was basing his advice on a couple of things, such as his understanding of the strategic role of the reserve components during the seventies and eighties, as well as his disdain for the military, based on his experience in Vietnam. But as Bruce said, at that point, the role of the reserve components had started to shift away From the concept of a reserve force, one, to be called up only in an emergency. To an operational strategic force that is more or less constantly relied upon. Even after joining active duty and I was serving in Bosnia in the mid 1990s. We had soldiers in my unit who had been activated and attached to our company. And we certainly served with reserve component units in Iraq and Afghanistan. So when Bruce said that reserve component service members were holding down full-time civilian careers, while also managing a full-time military career on a part-time basis. That makes total sense. And also Many employers who understood the concept of the reserve component in its former role as a strategic reserve force might also have those same misconceptions about the nature of today's garden, reserved service. And that's where ESG R can come in to support. Incidentally to finish the personal story of how I served over 20 years in active duty. Uh, my father's advice was also based on a couple of assumptions that I would be good at college and that I would enjoy living in his basement, working in a pizza joint, both of which turned out to be untrue the best part of the year after basic training was all the army stuff that I got to do. 

And we all agreed that my first instinct was the better one. I joined active duty less than a year after graduating basic training. And I didn't look back. The other point that I'd like to make is, again, something that Bruce said early on about, he had a certain mindset about the reserve component when he was leaving active duty. He acknowledged that he was incorrect, but this is an important consideration about military culture. 

There was a strong, competitive, and even judgemental aspect that many service members have when comparing their service to the service of others. The military is a difficult occupation, sometimes dangerous and somewhat aggressive. There's a strong impulse to personally identify not only with your occupation, but also with the history and traditions of the unit base and even branch of service that you're assigned to. And the military is also a young person's game. 

And anytime you get young men and women doing a challenging thing at a very high level competition is going to be part of it who can run faster, jump higher, do this faster or better or longer than anyone else. And again, that applies to inner service rivalries. Everyone likes to make jabs at the other services. 

Of course. But that also applies within the military with certain assumptions between combat arms and non-combat arms, or between someone from the 82nd airborne division and someone from the hundred first airborne division or Marines that went to boot camp at Parris island, compared to those who went to bootcamp at Marine Corps, recruit Depot, San Diego. Often the jabs are good. 

Natured But it can also serve to reinforce judgemental stereotypes of better or worse. And it is often very obvious. 

In the manner that Bruce described it, the disdain that some active component service members have for members of the reserve components and that disdain and judgmental illness is flat out wrong. Everyone serving did so voluntarily and for their own reasons. 

And assuming that one is better than the other is to be ignorant to the fact that services, service in whatever form it takes. As I mentioned to Bruce, I have several colleagues in the community work that I've done in the past, who are volunteers with the SGR and they are amongst some of the most dedicated and professional veterans that I have ever known. Again, services, service, and it's good to know that ESG are, is ensuring that the service of garden reserve service members is supported and recognized by their employers in the civilian sector. So I hope you appreciated this conversation with Bruce. 

If you did, we would appreciate hearing from you. So if you do have some feedback, let us know, drop a review in your podcast, player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We're always glad to hear from listeners, both feedback on the show and suggestions for future guests. But this week, second, I'm a resource of the week I'd like to share the PsychArmor course best practices for employer support of national guard and reserve members. This course is intended to help guide employers who hire or are looking to hire national garden reserve members.This course will discuss best practices pertaining to recruiting training and developing family support policies. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.