Episode 102 Transcription

Welcome to Episode 102 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversations with PsychArmor trusted partners and educational experts. My name is Duane France and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, Veterans, and their families. You can find the show on all the podcast players or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast. 

Thanks again for joining us and Behind The Mission. Our work in mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. Our sponsor this week is PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. Find out more at www.psycharmor.org.

On today's episode, we're featuring a conversation with retired army major general Greg F Martin. General Martin is a combat veteran airborne ranger engineer, qualified soldier and bipolar disorder survivor. He is writing, speaking and sharing his story of battling bipolar disorder to help save lives and stop the stigma against the condition. I can find out more about general Martin by checking out his bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with him and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.

[00:00:00] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: So General Martin, you've been a vocal advocate for mental health and wellness as well as having a successful military career. Both of those things are intertwined, but they're also two separate journeys. Maybe we can start off with talking about those two journeys, where they converged, and why you're so passionate about what you're doing now.

[00:00:15] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: Okay, first, it's great to be with you, Dwayne. I appreciate the opportunity. so my Army career started when I was a walk onto Army, R O T C at University of Maine, a after high school. And then I ended up applying for and getting into West Point. Went there from 19 75 to 79, commissioned in the Corps of Engineers.

Airborne school, ranger school, first assignment off to Germany, platoon leader, company commander, et cetera. And I fell in love with the army. I thought I would only do my five year, Commitment, my required commitment, but I just really enjoyed leading soldiers, taking care of them, helping them with their personal problems and challenges.

And then the mission during the Cold War was really exciting, important. And so the Army has a great way of keeping people in. they offered me graduate school they paid the whole way, paid me my salary in the whole nine yards. And so they kept giving me, Opportunities that I couldn't turn down for the rest of my career.

So whether it was, civilian schooling, a great assignment, a command, a military school, or, what have you, the army kept giving me jobs that I kept accepting. . And so before you knew it, I was a battalion commander and then a brigade commander and I went to the war college and then, got promoted to one star and then two star.

And so I had a very, um, rich and full army career. Got to do lots of really interesting, exciting, challenging things, uh, sometimes dangerous. And I just really enjoyed it. it was a great. Career, but it was also calling, a mission, a purpose to serve a cause greater than self, and also to serve a lot of people that I could help in one way or another.

it was a great career. Unbeknownst to me, I was on the bipolar spectrum, which is a term that I've recently learned about. I was on the bipolar spectrum pretty much that whole journey. and I didn't realize it until a couple years ago, but, as a young person, probably in my teens, I, acquired a, condition called hyperemia, which is a mood temperament.

[00:02:24] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: it's not mental illness. It's below the level of bipolar, below the level of mania. But what it did is it's a brain condition that gives. Excess amounts of energy, enthusiasm, optimism, creativity, and so forth. And so if you have hyperthermia, it's really an advantage because all the desirable traits are amplified.

And so that's the good news about hyperthermia and it helped me enormously as an army officer. The downside of hyperthermia, is that it increases the probability that you'll go into mania and bipolar, and that's exactly what happened to me. So from teenage years into my forties, my hyperthermia kept creeping.

Up, up, up until, by the time I was in my forties, I was probably just below the threshold of having bipolar disorder. real mania. And then, as you know from, my background. The medical, experts, they have said that my, genetic predisposition for bipolar was triggered by the, the euphoria, the thrill, the stress, the pressure of combat Iraq.

And so 2003, 47 years old. That's when I actually went into, real actual bipolar disorder. And then that continued from 2003 to 2014 before I was diagnosed. So I went 11 years as a senior army officer having unknown, undiagnosed undetected bipolar disorder. And it didn't become a crisis until 2014 when I went into full-blown mania and essentially, Went into a state of madness.

I went into a period of insanity where I was completely over the top, off the rails, hit most of the criteria for very acute, mania and bipolar disorder. And so I was diagnosed in, November, 2014. Had to retire a few months later. Once I got that diagnosis, I said, I'm gonna tell my story. I am not gonna be quiet about this, or try to hide it or be embarrassed or ashamed, because that just makes no sense.

[00:04:36] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: It's a physiological condition inside the wiring of the brain. It's nothing to do with lack of character. Lack of willpower,or, or anything like that. And so I'm gonna start telling my story and so I. In 2014,I was very open, very public about it. And then of course I was in a terrible state of depression and psychosis for a couple years.

So I couldn't do much to tell my story cuz I was pretty much a zombie for those two years. . And then fast forward two years, when I was in the inpatient psychiatric ward at the VA in White River Junction, Vermont, I was in the, you know, locked up facility. And I told my therapist, I wanna write a book about my bipolar experience.

And she just, Shook her head and said, in case you haven't realized that you're an inpatient ward because you have acute bipolar disorder, and I don't think you're , it's the time to start writing about it. I said, okay. She said, when you feel ready, go ahead. So a couple years after that, after I had made major, major steps on the road to recovery, it was interesting.

My mother, passed away and I got filled with energy, and so once I did all the funeral tasks, I shifted right into writing my manuscript for my book, and it took me, I wrote every day for a year and got my manuscript done. And then I started writing articles and giving talks. And so I've probably published about 25 articles.

probably done a few dozen talks and my book manuscript is being published as we speak. So that's a long way to say I developed a mission to share my bipolar story in order to help stop the stigma and save lives. you know, as an Army guy, I have to have a mission. I have to have a purpose.

[00:06:21] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: I have to be focused. And as I was recovering, getting my life back together, after. , you know, terrible bipolar crisis, rebuilding my marriage, getting back in physical condition emotionally, and mentally getting on solid ground. I said, okay, this is good. I'm heading in the right direction.

What's my mission? And I thought about it for, a number of months and it just came to me, share my bipolar story, help stop the stigma, which is the biggest barrier in deterrent to people getting help cuz they feel. Embarrassed and ashamed. I said, I'm gonna help, do my part to stop the stigma and that I know will help save, marriages, families, careers.

It'll help prevent addictions, homelessness, prison, and it'll help he help prevent suicides and help save lives. So that's a very quick thumbnail sketch of my. And it's been incredible. the response to my message and on social media and all my talks and articles and everything has been so positive and encouraging.

thousands and thousands of people who are really,grateful, encouraging,wanna work with me on mental health issues, co-author articles, do collaborative projects. So that's where I'm at right now. I'm going full speed. you did. I could have done anything,could have gotten a job, I could get back in the workforce.

and there's a couple things about that. Number one, it's probably not healthy for me to go, since I still do have bipolar disorder. It's pretty well managed and contained right now, but it's still, part of my brain. If I were to go back out in the workforce and get some kind of high pressure, job, it could put stress on me and trigger a relapse, which I don't want to have happen.

[00:08:10] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: That's number one. But number two, I can't imagine doing anything else that is as important and profound and meaningful as what I'm doing with my bipolar mission. So that, that I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stay with it, and keep working at.

[00:08:26] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: I think that's amazing and obviously, From your position, position as a senior, military officer sharing that, It gives a lot of hope for people I'd like to dial into, you said there was that 11 years of after the stress, and then obviously, where things came to an head.

but you were a senior military officer at that time. You had received clean bills of health. there were,you know, medical, is psychological psychiatric doctors who said that there's not a problem here. And I'm curious, do you think that would've been different if.

[00:08:57] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: Maybe he graduated West Point in 95, and maybe you were a young captain or a young major, but instead you were a general and people were like, he's a general, there can't be this other thing because he would have not made it to this high rank. did the military rank structure play into that sum, do you think?

[00:09:14] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: I think it probably did. the thing about bipolar disorder is, It helps you or It helped me significantly by enhancing and boosting my performance for a number of years, so it helped me until it went too high. and then it didn't help me anymore, and then it really hurt me. And so all those years of, undetected Bipolar disorder, people looked at me and said, wow, this guy's just, a fireball, tons of energy.

Super smart. Great problem solver. Very creative, really extroverted, good speaker. And so all they saw was the good side of it. They didn't notice that I was starting to dip into depressions, and I was starting to cycle up and then down, and it didn't become obvious that I had a problem. and I've gone back and interviewed loads of people that worked around me during my whole career, but it didn't become, Noticeable as a general officer until I had bipolar for five or six years.

And remember it went for an 11 year stretch before I got fired from my job at National Defense University and then got diagnosed. So I think being high ranking probably helped. Cover up and mask and it, I didn't think there was anything wrong with me until I fell into terrible depression in 2014.

when you're in mania, you feel great and you think you're Superman and the smartest guy in the world. But when I fell into terrible depression, then I knew there's something wrong. and I wanted help. And I embraced the diagnosis, but prior to that, I think being a high ranking officer, whether it was colonel, one star, two star, I think when you go in the doctor sees a general and says, okay, here's a really, successful person with a great record.

[00:11:10] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: And they just make an assumption that there's nothing wrong with you. Now, if I was a 20 year old private with the same behaviors, they would probably be able to diagnose it much quicker and easier. But as you know,most bipolar strikes between the ages of 18 and 25. So it strikes younger people. So I walked in the door in my forties and fifties and they just, it wasn't in their frame of reference.

The other thing that the doctors did that was not good is they didn't reach out and get. Other evidence or other information from other people. So for example, in 2014 when I was basically removed from my command by the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, he removed me. basically said, resign or You're fired.

Which by the way is a great decision that probably saved my life. so I appreciate him doing that. And then he said, I'm giving you a command directive to go see a psychiatrist and get a mental health eval. . And so I said, okay. And I went and they, did the full psych evaluation plus a general practitioner, and they said, you're perfectly healthy.

There's nothing wrong with you,you're fit for duty. And by the way, that followed on two previous ones. So in one month, July, 2014, I had three psychiatric evaluations that all said, you're perfectly healthy. There's nothing wrong with you. But what they didn't do, the doctors, is they didn't reach to my chain of command and say, okay, why did you send this guy to us?

What evidence do you have? Share your information with us. They didn't do that. And then on the other side of the coin, My chain of command didn't send the file on me about how crazy I had become to the doctors, so they were operating in the dark. They also, the doctors didn't do a comprehensive, job interrogating my wife to really get her perspective.

And we had an adult son who was living at home with us, who saw me every day, and they didn't ask him anything. They're, and they're supposed to do that. That's part of what doctors are supposed to do. And so they failed on that part. as well as the intimidation factor in giving me the benefit of the doubt as a senior officer.

it's interesting though, but when you can go back a little earlier than that. So all that I just described was 2014, but 2003 when I got home from Iraq in oh four, they do a psychiatric screening of all the soldiers and they ask me, how are you doing? Are you suicidal? Blah, blah.

[00:13:40] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: I said, I'm not suicidal, but I'm, I feel very depressed. I'm not sure what it is to be depressed, but whatever it is, I feel terrible, low energy. And I ticked off all the symptoms of depression. And they said, oh, they said, what do you do when you're depressed? And I said, well, I listen to, you know, inspirational music.

I go over inspirational bible verses. I try to do pt, intense physical training. And at night when I'm off duty, I drink a lot cuz that makes me feel better. And they said, oh, you're fine. You're, there's nothing wrong with you at all.

and I fell into a terrible depression for 10 months and was working at that point. After command, I went to a four star headquarters. high level staff officer. So that's like house of pain, working on a staff for a four star and I was in a horrible depression.

I went to the doctor and said, Hey Doc, I really think there's something wrong. And they checked me out and said, oh no, you're fine. And that happened another three or four times over the next decade where I went to the doctor about depress. and because in, which was of course, I'm going up into mania, down into depression, and every time I fell into depression, I mean, it was horrible.

I was withdrawn, indecisive, I, I didn't want to be around people. I, it was a terrible condition to be in and, had low energy and all that. But never once did the doctors pick up that I, in. Was depressed and then gee, let's talk to some other people. Oh. But most of the time you're high energy boy, so you're up.

[00:15:11] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: You're down. That sounds like bipolar. So I think between my going to the doctors and the doctors having the opportunity to evaluate me, there were at least half a dozen opportunities for them to pinpoint bipolar disorder, but it just never, and I think really, bipolar disorder specifically, you've mentioned it. this is, a chemical imbalance issue. This is a brain thing. I had a client one time who was like, they tell me, it's all in my head. Well, it is all in your head because it's all in your brain, right. Right. Uh, there's a lot of stigma around mental health in general, and certainly in military and veterans space, but like you were just talking about, bipolar is often misdiagnosed or even casually mentioned as a derogatory term.

[00:15:53] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: He or she is bipolar or like schizophrenia. Oh, they're schizo. Where it's almost pejorative. We don't always see that like we see with medical conditions like cancer, diabetes, people are labeled with you're bipolar, as if it's a horrible, negative.

[00:16:08] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: You hit the nail on the head. There's a terrible stigma. And it's more, I think you're right. Schizophrenia is probably the most stigmatized. And then B, after that bipolar disorder. And, it's really unfair. It's, uneducated. it's really an ignorant, Prejudice perspective against people who have the misfortune of living with bipolar disorder.

it's just, you said it perfectly, it is in your head, it's in your brain, It's a physiologically real condition inside the wiring of the brain. bipolar is just as physiologically real as diabetes, cancer, heart disease, and there's no stigma against those conditions.

[00:16:52] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: Basically, the attitude is, if you have cancer or, diabetes or whatever, Evaluated, get diagnosed, and then let's give you the treatment to manage it or cure it so you can go on and live a happy, healthy, successful life. And it should be the exact same attitude towards bipolar disorder.

It should be no different at all. it's really interesting. In my research I discovered that, there used to be a terrible stigma concerning cancer, especially breast cancer. And if you go back to the 1970s women who had breast cancer, it was considered shameful, embarrassing. It was stigmatized.

Families didn't talk about it. And First Lady Betty Ford. Married to the President Ford, she got breast cancer and she said, I am going to help change this. And so she went on a PR crusade and said, okay, I have breast cancer. Here are the facts. Here's the situation. Here's what I'm doing to get, well.Millions of women have breast cancer. It shouldn't be, stigmatized. And so she was the pioneer. Who helped set the conditions. So now 50 years later, women fighting breast cancer is considered a heroic cause. we're proud of women who are overcoming breast cancer and, professional athletes wear pink shoes and pink ribbons, and pink clothes to, honor.

Women fighting breast cancer, so it's no longer stigmatized. It's seen as a heroic cause. And I think, battling bipolar and other mental conditions and mental illnesses should be seen in the same way. like I, I'm frankly, I'm proud to be a bipolar survivor and a thriver and a warrior who's, helping to pull people together and encourage people and educate people.

Like, I mean, I feel good about it. Like I'm actually doing more good now than I did as an army officer. and I think we've come a long way when you think about it,when you joined the army, P T S D was still really stigmatized. It's not anymore. P T S D is understood.

[00:18:58] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: It's accepted. there's great compassion from the American public towards people with P T S D. Service members with P T S D are evaluated, they're treated, they're allowed to continue serving, including lots of very high ranking people. traumatic brain injury, same thing. that is, I think people understand it.

It's honored. There's a great effort to help people c with the condition. We're getting better about depression, and I think bipolar needs to follow, because bipolar is, it's such a, it's such a dangerous. Potentially deadly mental illness that, the last thing we need is stigma, that prevents people from getting help.

We need people to say, Hey, I think I might, I have something wrong. Or using the buddy system or peer support system, to get people to help so they can, get help. Because the, the, the bad news about bipolar is it can be devastating and destroy lives and relationships and careers, but the good news.

That once diagnosed, it's very treatable and it can be managed very effectively and people can live a perfectly healthy life. living with bipolar in a contained managed way.

[00:20:10] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: Yes, absolutely. I,I had a mentor and a colleague who, who was a chaplain in the army, and we did some work together in, in post-military life, doing some suicide support stuff. And he described it as he had bipolar, but he's like, I take my medicine every day as if I had heart disease. I would take my medicine every day.

It is one of those things that is, as you said, it is treatable and manageable. general Martin, I really appreciate the time today. If people wanted to find out more about you, the articles that you've written, the work that you're doing, maybe the book when it comes out, how can they do that?

[00:20:44] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: I've got a website with, all my articles and just about all of my talks and interviews and podcasts,uh, I'll definitely put this. One on, once it comes out, and my website is and that's general, just the word general. And then Greg is g r e g g m a r t i n.com.

[00:21:09] audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: That's excellent. I will make sure that the link to that is in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[00:21:14] audiomaggiemartin11610259671: You're welcome Dwayne. It was really an honor and a privilege and again, I I really commend you and thank you for what you're doing cuz you're what your work is making a huge difference. So thanks.

[00:21:24]audioDuaneFrance,MA,M21610259671: Absolutely. I appreciate it.

Once again, we would like to thank this week's sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations. 

I am constantly appreciative of people who joined me for conversations, where they share the honest versions of themselves, the good and the bad. There's the old saying that you should be kind to others because you don't know what they're going through. General Martin story tells us that many times they don't know what they're going through either. 

There's so much to unpack in this short conversation. His lack of awareness about what was going on is multiple attempts to reach out for help when in the midst of depression and the condition going undiagnosed and untreated. There's this idea that we have that successful people aren't struggling. The myth of the invincible leader. It's the one that we all want to believe, because if the person in charge of us is struggling, if the person in charge of us is fallible, what does that say about me? 

General Martin alluded to a question that I asked him before we started recording why he does what he does and why he chose to be so vocal about his mental health and his post-military life. I had mentioned to him that he could have done an infinite number of things and he let me know, as you just heard that he could not have done an infinite number of things. 

Consider the level of self-awareness that it takes to know that if he were to enter into another high stress environment, he could experience another manic reaction or this situation could spin him into another staggering depression. He knows himself in noses limits and recognizes and accepts them. 

He grows in other ways, of course. And just because one aspect of our lives is minimized. Another part of our lives can grow. I also really appreciate his perspective about how talking about a problem, bringing it out into the open, reduces the stigma against the problem and can lead to solutions. 

I remember growing up in the 1980s in the beginning of the aids epidemic. And now HIV is recognized as a medical condition. That is treatable. That's not to say that the stigma is entirely erased or the judgment and prejudice are still not prevalent. But things change when people stop hiding their situations, stop accepting the status quo and stop avoiding difficult conversations. When we stopped to consider what is happening in someone's life and respond with compassion and concern. 

Then we recognize that we're all just humans trying to live human lives in a human world. No one is perfect. No one is flawless. No one has pristine. But at the same time, No one is beyond caring for no one is so broken that they can not be mended and no one is disposable. 

It took General Martin years to get to a place where he could do what he does now. But consider how powerful what he's doing now is maybe one of the lessons that we can learn from my conversation with him. is that it's never too late to do one thing to change the world for the better. So hopefully you appreciated this conversation with general Martin, if you did, we would appreciate hearing from you. So if you have some feedback, let us know, drop a review in your podcast, player of choice or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We're always glad to hear from listeners, both feedback on the show and suggestions for future guests.

For this week’s PsychArmor of the Week, I'd like to share the PsychArmor course series, Bolstering Resilience, part of the brain health and wellness series sponsored by the Wounded Warrior Project. This mini course series on resilience spotlights five supporting factors that bolster resilience, smart goals, mental health, nutrition, sleep, and exercise. Each element builds on a person's foundation and increases the ability to successfully cope with high levels of stress and pressure. You'll learn why these supporting pillars are so important to overall wellbeing, their application and daily life and how it's never too late to make a lasting change. You can find the link to the resource in our show notes.